Pathfinder 2E's New Death & Dying Rules; More on Resonance

It's another day, and that means another round of Pathfinder 2nd Edition News! Today's menu includes more discussion on resonance, followed by the main course -- the new rules for death & dying! All added, as ever, to the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Compiled Info Page!

Photo by Paizo

​

• There are Pathfinder Playtest pro-order posters at the GAMA trade show. See above! And below...
• Gnome Stew reported on the Future of Pathfinder seminar at Gary Con. Mainly stuff we've heard before, but there are some new tidbits:
  • Shadow of the Demon Lord, white-box D&D, Magic: the Gathering, Tales from the Loop, and Star Trek Adventures were all referenced during development.
  • The item (shield) damage system has a name -- it's called "dented".
  • Some "signature gear" can level up with your character.
  • "Background will grant a specific Lore, which is similar to a specialized knowledge skill, such as Lore—Alcohol being granted to a character with barkeep as a background".
• Resonance proved divisive yesterday.
  • Jason Bulmahn weighed in on the heated discussion -- "Hey there all! Let's all just take a breath here before things get too heated. Resonance is a system that we knew was going to come with some controversy. It's really hard to give you a full sense of what the system allows us to do with the design space without going on a deep dive on magic items. This is a topic we are going to hit soon, so hang in there. I will say this before I go to run more demos at GAMA. Players have rarely run out of resonance in our games, and there is a lot more healing to go around than you might think."
  • Class features don't use Resonance -- "We avoided making class features that use Resonance Points unless they're directly tied to items. Resonance is a resource for items thematically and specifically. If you have abilities from a bloodline, you'll have to pay for those some other way..." (Bonner)
  • "...we've had some delightful occultist-based thought experiments based on some of these ideas as the "kings of resonance."[FONT=&amp] (Seifter)[/FONT]
  • Bulmahn commented -- "Hmm... I keep seeing posts that tracking one pool of points is too fiddly. It's odd, considering that it's meant to replace a system where everything had its own personal system of usage with times per day, total charges, and time based limits. Of course, I have plenty of reservations about this particular mechanic. We're definitely pushing the envelope here, but fiddly is not the complaint I expected to see so frequently."
• New Dying Rules! "RumpinRufus" reported on how they worked in the live streamed game at the GAMA trade show:
  • There are no negative hit points - if you take damage equal or greater than your HP, you go down to 0 HP and get the Dying 1 condition.
  • If a crit knocks you to 0, you gain Dying 2 instead of Dying 1.
  • Each round, you must make a save to stabilize. The save DC is based off the enemy - a boss may have a higher death DC than a mook, so you are more likely to be killed by bosses.
  • If you reach Dying 4, then you are dead.
  • If you make the stabilize check, you gain a hit point, but are still Dying. If you make another save at 1 HP, you are no longer Dying, and you regain consciousness.
  • If an ally heals you while you are Dying, you still have the Dying condition, even though you have positive HP. You still need to make a stabilize check to regain consciousness. But, once your HP is positive, you are no longer at danger of death from failing your checks - failing a stabilize check just means you stay unconscious.
  • The Stabilize cantrip puts you at 1 HP.
  • Mark Seifter further added -- "If you get well and truly annihilated by an attack, you die instantly. Even a 1st PC could probably insta-kill a kobold grandmother, even if the GM chose for full tracking of unconscious and dying NPCs."
• Erik Mona on monster books again, and how self-contained stat blocks will be -- "I don't think we've fully committed one way or the other yet. The playtest monster book is going to be mega stat block dump without a lot of description of what, say, a skeleton looks like or eats. As for special abilities and how they're formatted, while I know the design team has been hard at work on this stuff, I haven't interacted with it too much yet (I just finished going through magic items last night!)."
• Both Erik Mona and James Jacobs feel strongly about the presence of more outsider types on the summoning lists -- "No, actually, James Jacobs and I also feel very strongly about this. Very strongly."
• Logan Bonner comments on complexity, options, and the 'cognitive load' -- "We're keeping it in mind for sure. That's one reason we've rejiggered the number of bonus types, altered the action economy to make choice clearer, and (at least mostly) made it so you have options for static feats instead of only giving options to expand your list of actions. We'll see in the playtest whether that mix is right."
• Logan Bonner informs us that coffee and tea have been added to the Playtest Rulebook.
• Mark Seifter on how corruption could work "...gaining a corruption could unlock a new set of ancestry feats, as your fundamental nature has shifted."

Photo by Paizo
[FONT=&amp]Save[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Save[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Save[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Save[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Save[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Save[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Save[/FONT]​

 

[Charlaquin]

My question about Resonance - and if it's already been answered elsewhere I missed it - is how it's intended to work with "always on" items e.g. magic armour, weapons, rings, etc.; particularly those that have occasional extra effects.

If I have a +1 shortsword that on a critical heals me for 2d6; a suit of fearless +0 plate mail (makes me immune to fear effects); and a +1 shield that 3x/day on my command generates a force pulse that can knock back my foe and stun it (save applies) - how do these work with Resonance? And for completeness, let's say I've also got a +1 returning dagger at my belt.

Those are three different levels of effect. The shortsword's effect isn't under my control and its triggering condition is random. The armour's effect is always on. The shield effect is under my control as is its triggering.

So, in a battle-heavy day the following things happen. In each case, how many Resonance points are used?

It’s not entirely clear, but I think you spend Resonance once to activate a passive magical effect for a day, and one for each use of an activated magical effect. Not sure how triggered effects play into it, but I would assume they work like passive effects, since they’re essentially “always on,” looking for an oppprtunity to trigger. I suppose it could be that once they trigger you have to spend a Resonance to “prepare” them again. So...

0. I don my armour and shield in the morning, and draw my shortsword when battle nears.

That’s 1 to activate the armor for the day and 1 to activate the shortsword for the day (or until your first crit?). The shield doesn’t need any resonance since you haven’t activated it’s ability yet. 2 Resonance total so far

1. I score two criticals with my shortsword, getting healed up a bit each time.

Depending on how we interpret triggered abilities, this costs either 0 Resonance since the shortsword is already “on” for the day, or 1 to re-activate it after the first crit and presumably 1 to re-activate it after the second crit. Either 2 or 4 Resonance total so far.

2. My armour protects me against four different fear effects.

No additional Resonance cost, since you already activated it for the day. Still at 2/4.

3. I use all three stun-shots from my shield.

That’s just 3 Resonance, each shot costing 1 Resonance to use. Either 5 or 7 Resonance spent so far.

4. On five different occasions I stow my shortsword, pull out my dagger, and throw it.

You didn’t mention activating that dagger at the beginning of the day, so I don’t think it’s returning property functions today under the “Triggered=Passive” interpretation.. Still 5 Resonance so far in that case, unless we assume you had activated it, in which case we’d be at 6 Resonance. Under the “triggered=activated” interpretation, it doesn’t return the first time, you kick yourself, maybe make a check to find it after the battle, and pre-activate it before the next 4 uses. So then we’d be up to 11 Resonance, or 12 if we assume you remembered to activate it the first time.

5. At one point I take a breather and put my shield down, and later I pick it up and re-don it.

There’s no use of magic involved here, so I don’t think that affects the count.

6. During the day I knock back two potions of healing.

Those cost 1 Resonance each. Assuming you didn’t forget to turn your dagger on, that’s either 8 Resonance total for the day, or 14, depending on how we interpret triggered abilities. Given that the Paizo folks said their playtesters very rarely ran up against the Resonance limit, the smart money is on the “Triggered=Passive” interpretation.

 

[Rupert Gilliand1]

Yup, me too

Me three. I'd have to see their rationale to really get what they're going for here.
I can see it being tied to a weapon/spell property, though. Like "Rending: Increases the stabilise DC by 2" or a trade-off where a spell or monster ability does more damage in exchange for lowering the stability DC significantly...

 

[Blue]

My question about Resonance - and if it's already been answered elsewhere I missed it - is how it's intended to work with "always on" items e.g. magic armour, weapons, rings, etc.; particularly those that have occasional extra effects.

If I have a +1 shortsword that on a critical heals me for 2d6; a suit of fearless +0 plate mail (makes me immune to fear effects); and a +1 shield that 3x/day on my command generates a force pulse that can knock back my foe and stun it (save applies) - how do these work with Resonance? And for completeness, let's say I've also got a +1 returning dagger at my belt.

Well, we'll find out more at the playtest. From the limited information, taken second hand (from the summaries here) it seems like it would be:

At the beginning of your day, your permanent items have a Resonance cost called Investment. So you allocate some of your Resonance and now have use of the +1 short sword, immunity to fear, +1 shield, and +1 returning(?) dagger in their basic forms. That's a static number used every day that only changes when you modify what items you carry so it shouldn't take a lot of game time.

Activating an item also takes Resonance. Now, we have no information yet about a triggered item like the short sword, so we'll have to hold off on that. The Shield is usable an unlimited number of times per day - they rolled uses per day into Resonance - but each time you use it, it costs Resonance. I have no idea if the "returning" property on your dagger is considered activation requiring Resonance - I could make a guess but I have so little direct feel that it would be misleading to say we know how it's handled.

 

[Charlaquin]

I'm confused - in the case of an item being used on a remote target (e.g. a CLW wand being used on an ally) is it the item user's Resonance that's being drained or the Resonance of the receiver of the effect?

I think it's supposed to be the user, and here's why: if it's the receiver, when I use a wand of fireballs against an opponent not only do I fry them but I drain their Resonance as well. I kinda don't think that's what they have in mind...

Lanefan

You’re probably right. It wouldn’t really make much sense for the recipient of the magic to be the one to spend the Resonance. Yet another reason Potions really shouldn’t cost Resonance. If we go with the user spends the Resonance interpretation, it should cost Resonance to brew a magic potion, not to drink one.

 

[Shasarak]

[*]Resonance proved divisive yesterday.

• Jason Bulmahn weighed in on the heated discussion -- "Hey there all! Let's all just take a breath here before things get too heated. Resonance is a system that we knew was going to come with some controversy. It's really hard to give you a full sense of what the system allows us to do with the design space without going on a deep dive on magic items. This is a topic we are going to hit soon, so hang in there. I will say this before I go to run more demos at GAMA. Players have rarely run out of resonance in our games, and there is a lot more healing to go around than you might think."

• 
  
  My question would be, if you rarely run out of resonance then do you actually need resonance?
  
  It just reinforces the common complaint that resonance is the worst rule in Pathfinder.

 

[Charlaquin]

My question would be, if you rarely run out of resonance then do you actually need resonance?

I rarely run out of gas in my car, but that doesn’t mean I don’t need a fuel gauge. People probably don’t often run out of Resonance because it’s a visible resource that they can consciously plan around. If people tend to use stronger, more expensive healing items rather than using cheaper ones more often to save on Resonance, and find thry don’t tend to run out of Resonance when they do so, that would seem to be working as intended. Encouraging economical use of resources without actually hampering your ability to use magic items.

 

[Shasarak]

I rarely run out of gas in my car, but that doesn’t mean I don’t need a fuel gauge. People probably don’t often run out of Resonance because it’s a visible resource that they can consciously plan around. If people tend to use stronger, more expensive healing items rather than using cheaper ones more often to save on Resonance, and find thry don’t tend to run out of Resonance when they do so, that would seem to be working as intended. Encouraging economical use of resources without actually hampering your ability to use magic items.

The difference that when you run out of gas (or hit points for example) then something happens: your car stops (and you start to die in the case of hit points). These are obviosuly important things for you to keep track of.

But what happens when you run out of resonance? Well nothing really unless you want to drink another healing potion in which case all of a sudden the magic stops working.

And that is what makes it the worst rule, it just exists to stop your fun. Hey look at all your cool magic items you got there, too bad that you cant use them all. Sucks to be you I guess.

Because why do you "want" to spam your wand of cure? Because you dont want to go into your adventure injured. So if you cant use your healing then the obvious solution is to just go home and rest for the day which means it naturally feeds into a 5 minute work day. I would say that this is just a classic example of unexpected consequences except of course that we already saw this exact problem in 4e and do we really need to touch that burning hot fire again? No, just No.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

You’re probably right. It wouldn’t really make much sense for the recipient of the magic to be the one to spend the Resonance. Yet another reason Potions really shouldn’t cost Resonance. If we go with the user spends the Resonance interpretation, it should cost Resonance to brew a magic potion, not to drink one.

Potions work exactly like all other magic items in this system, in that they are devices which allow an individual to channel their own personal reservoir of magical energy in a specific way. Everybody is like a walking battery, and magic items interface directly with that energy, and you can choose how you want to spend your energy before it runs out. You can either channel it through a staff to let the staff do its thing, or channel it into the runes on your sword to make it sharper for the day, or channel it into a potion in order to convert its ingredients into a healing effect. In every case, the user is the power source and the device is what shapes that power. At least, as I understand it.

The only thing that's even slightly weird about this explanation is that it means spellcasters have two different reserves of magical power which are completely incompatible with each other. You would expect that spellcasters could channel Resonance to power their spells, such that the only difference between spellcasters and non-spellcasters would be that spellcasters could cast spells without needing a magic item, if they'd tried to invent mechanics that would fit this explanation instead of trying to retro-fit new mechanics on top of the existing lore.

 

[Grimstaff]

Some clever entrepreneur is going to make a fortune on an app to track resonance points and dying levels

 

[Blue]

My question would be, if you rarely run out of resonance then do you actually need resonance?

It just reinforces the common complaint that resonance is the worst rule in Pathfinder.

"Hey, here's a rule to prevent abuses, which luckily are rare."

"O.M.G. That's the worst rule in Pathfinder. I speak for everyone, so it's a common complaint."

Really? Maybe see what the rule in context and play before starting hyperbole that it's the Worst Thang Evar(tm).