Savage Pathfinder Pathfinder Adventure Paths Are Coming To Savage Worlds!

Thomas Shey · Dec 3, 2020

I'll just note I run all kinds of different systems with Maptool and either Skype or Discord, so no automation worth mentioning. I frankly don't understand what the problem would be here that wasn't true face to face. The only games I'd be hesitant to run this way would be games dependent on card play or similar special cases.

Wrathamon · Dec 3, 2020

I would buy all 5e hardcovers of their APs if they made them ...

Whizbang Dustyboots · Dec 3, 2020

Retreater said:
Without going too off topic in this thread, here's how 5e clashes with OSR sensibilities for me.
1) Power levels are crazy in 5e
2) Healing is easier
3) Nearly every character gets spells
4) The fiddly bonus action - which is confusing even to people I've been playing 5e with for 2+ years
5) Endless 0-level spells
6) And magic isn't special, spells are nerfed compared to previous editions
7) There are rules for nearly everything - reducing the importance of DM rulings
8) Death Saves mean characters rarely die

Having come to 5e from 3.x/PF/4e/etc., I think it seems simple and a little more old-school by comparison. But when I play with my friends who are used to systems like Labyrinth Lord, their eyes cross and they ask "what is all this fiddly nonsense?"

All of that is true, although you're arguing against something I didn't assert.

The ruleset does have enough similarities that it's not hard to guide someone from one to another, especially if their baseline is 1E, which was full of different fiddly nonsense.

Retreater · Dec 3, 2020

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
The ruleset does have enough similarities that it's not hard to guide someone from one to another, especially if their baseline is 1E, which was full of different fiddly nonsense.

That's true. I'm giving our Old School Essentials DM a hard time because he requested we use attack matrices (for a more authentic experience). Now for him every attack roll is a complicated "let's figure this out" moment.

Inchoroi · Dec 3, 2020

Wrathamon said:
I would buy all 5e hardcovers of their APs if they made them ...

I absolutely would, too. I've limited myself to PDFs, save for a used copy of Rise of the Runelords that I got on the cheap. Can't convince myself to invest in dead tree copies of a system I'm not using on the reg.

Doctor Futurity · Dec 3, 2020

Retreater said:
PF1 was still in the lead on Fantasy Grounds

Fantasy Grounds Stats Show Massive Pandemic Bump

Fantasy Grounds has shared its usage stats going back over the last year. The recent pandemic has shown a massive boost of 150% in virtual tabletop game sessions! Here's a look at the game system distribution. "MoreCore" and "CoreRPG" are generic ruleset modules which can be used for many...

www.enworld.org

PF2 games are less than half of the ones on Roll20

Roll20 RPG Usage Stats: Growth Everywhere During Pandemic!

Roll20 has posted its latest Industry Report, revealing that the first quarter of 2020 shows growth for almost every game on its platform during the pandemic. D&D, of course, remains by far the most popular (up from 50% to 53% after a dip last year), with Call of Cthulhu and Pathfinder coming in...

www.enworld.org

PF2 releases on Roll20 have been ... delayed, flawed, and incomplete (the first AP isn't available yet). The Compendium doesn't work with the Character Sheet (which is really bad to begin with).

Legendary Games has a version of their latest adventure path for PF2 but admitted that it was the least selling one (compared to 5e and PF1). Now they are developing their own PF1-compatible system, Corefinder.

Frog God Games isn't touching PF2, though all their products are released for 5e, PF1, and their in-house OSR system (Swords & Wizardry).

And as someone who ran PF2 for a year, I can say 3rd party resources for that system have been like looking for a needle in a haystack. EN Publishing did some but they are retiring that line. Legendary Games has done some, but likely they will be focusing on Corefinder.

While Organized Play is likely suffering during the pandemic, a look at the official Paizo site lists very few online Society games with PF2. But you can find Starfinder games.

paizo.com - Organized Play / Events

I mean, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I don't think it's a bad system for what it's trying to do. But it's pretty much DOA at this point.

Time will tell. I recall that 3PP were very slow to adopt 5E for its first two years, took a while (and WotC's dmsguild.com) before we started to see that turn around. 3rd edition/PF1 have had a lock on the 3PP mindset for two decades now.

Doctor Futurity · Dec 3, 2020

wilcoxon said:
PF2 is definitely not DOA. PFS for PF2 is thriving - I think there were like 70 tables for the specials at virtual cons over the summer (pretty sure that's larger than any AL (5e) events recently (but not positive). I don't follow your "more PFS events" - I was playing multiple games per week and still could be (but I've run out of PFS material since it's only early in season 2).

Anecdotally, I don't know anyone that has tried PF2 and not liked it. I know multiple people that are basically transitioning to PF2 from 5e after trying PF2 (and I know quite a few people transitioning from PF1 to PF2).

As near as I can tell, PF2 has more players than SF (definitely not based on any hard data - just observations of con events and people talking about playing *Finder).

This mirrors my experience. I don't know anyone in my town locally that still plays PF1E, everyone has migrated to 5E or PF2E (that said, 5E still dominates).

Doctor Futurity · Dec 3, 2020

Stacie GmrGrl said:
PF2 seems like it would benefit better by playing it in person on tables you can toss dice onto than VTT.

I quite miss sitting at the table and gaming face to face, but my PF2E game converted pretty easily to Roll20 back in April and we all adjusted well enough --enough so that the comments here about Roll20 being poorly optimized for PF2E make me wonder how much better other VTT setups are....I've only experienced Astral and it's not really equipped for PF2E at all.

Actually, I'd say VTT has made the map/minis useage much easier, but at the expense of live human interaction, replaced instead by disembodied voices on headphones leading to what feels at times like a mild state of schizophrenia with what I'd call "audio claustrophobia." Maybe I need a different headset....

Doctor Futurity · Dec 3, 2020

Retreater said:
I agree. We started the campaign in person, then had to shift to Roll20 (the only option that worked with everyone's technology) at the start of the pandemic. The absence of Age of Ashes from the Roll20 marketplace meant I was putting in maps, inputting monsters and NPCs - a very time intensive job. The other thing meant it afforded less chance to run "off the cuff" encounters or modify things on the fly.
The character creator on Roll20 is also not up to snuff and the character sheet automation has some real issues that add a further level of complexity to an already highly complex game.
And I don't know what the future of gaming in person is going to look like, even after all this is over. My local gaming meta is that people like D&D here - other systems tend to fizzle after a few sessions (Savage Rifts, Numenera, Savage Worlds fantasy, 4e, WHFRPG) or after the conclusion of a specific campaign (FFG Star Wars, Call of Cthulhu).
So if I want to play or GM PF2 (or anything else not D&D), it would seem the online route is the only way.

Actually you make a really compelling point...with VTT becoming more normative in the wake of the pandemic, games will survive for which support and interest can be found in the VTT realm. In my own example, I've gone whole-heartedly into the Roll20 economy, which means that in terms of "games I can run with easy access to purchased compendiums and material" on Roll20 I am limited to D&D 5E, Pathfinder 2E, Starfinder, Call of Cthulhu, Cypher System and some oddities like Scum & Villainy. I could try to use their charactermancer to adapt or use character sheets for other systems but I don't have that kind of time (yes, I have more money than time), so its going to be those systems with the most compendium support I can spend time with. PF1E (or D&D 3.5 for that matter), which I would happily also run, doesn't even appear to have compendium support available on Roll20 so it's not even an option, even if I did want to go back to it. I'm actually contemplating trying out the Alien RPG now since it actually has Roll20 support.

Retreater · Dec 3, 2020

Doctor Futurity said:
Actually you make a really compelling point...with VTT becoming more normative in the wake of the pandemic, games will survive for which support and interest can be found in the VTT realm. In my own example, I've gone whole-heartedly into the Roll20 economy, which means that in terms of "games I can run with easy access to purchased compendiums and material" on Roll20 I am limited to D&D 5E, Pathfinder 2E, Starfinder, Call of Cthulhu, Cypher System and some oddities like Scum & Villainy. I could try to use their charactermancer to adapt or use character sheets for other systems but I don't have that kind of time (yes, I have more money than time), so its going to be those systems with the most compendium support I can spend time with. PF1E (or D&D 3.5 for that matter), which I would happily also run, doesn't even appear to have compendium support available on Roll20 so it's not even an option, even if I did want to go back to it. I'm actually contemplating trying out the Alien RPG now since it actually has Roll20 support.

As much as I've been negative about PF2's implementation on Roll20, I can say that it is doable. It's not nearly as full-featured as it is with 5e, and not as good as the implementation on Fantasy Grounds.
On Roll20, if you look at the character sheets when you create your game, you can find that there are many games you can play on there. If don't need full automation you can even play boardgames. I've done either test games or short campaigns with WEG's Star Wars, Old School Essentials, Swords & Wizardry, and Savage Worlds. Now you will want your books at your side to run them, but it can work.