Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Alpha "crunch" discussion

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Doing stuff to help non-spellcasters is more difficult. Essentially, the question is how do they get "more spotlight" and how make their contribution stronger. I think you will always run into a strong balance change here. But by ensuring that spellcasters still use high level spells sparingly, but get to enjoy their spellcasting with low level spells, you might get closer to an effective game balance between fighters and spellcasters.

Here are still some thoughts that might help the non-spellcasters.
Action Points: For each encounter you finish, you gain one action point. These can be spent on the following things:
- Reroll one melee or ranged attack roll. Take the higher result.
- Reroll one saving throw you just made. Take the higher result.
- Reroll weapon damage. Take the higher result.
- Reroll one skill check. Take the higher result.
- Confirm one critical hit.
- Negate one critical made against you.
- Ignore difficult terrain for one move action.

Spend 2 action points to gain one of the following benefits:
- One extra melee or ranged attack at highest base attack bonus. Optionally: Can be done as an immediate action against an enemy that moves through your threat range, or that misses you with his melee attack.
- Double weapon damage after succesful attack(but not spell damage. Use the normal rules for double doublings)
- Half the damage of one weapon attack against you.
- Reduce ability damage or drain taken to half. (Minimum 1)

You can spent as many action points as you like within one combat, but only once for each "opportunity", and can use only one of the options per round.
After resting for 8 hours, you lose all action points and reset back to one point. You can't "hoard" more than 5 + 1/2 your level in action points.

Action Points now allow non-spellcasters to deal or avoid massive amounts of damage if the really need to, and otherwise help everyone. They again serve to encourage continue "running", since you lose them if you will rest.

After that, you might want to add feats that build on action points, or add options to existing feats that relate to action points.
For example:
Cleave: When making a cleave attack, you can spend one action point to make a second attack against that enemy.
Greater Cleave. When making a cleave attack, you can spend one instead of two action points to double damage.
Dodge: Spend one action point instead of two to suffer only half damage from the target that you dodged against.
Mobility: If you spend an action point, you suffer no attack of opportunities due to movement for the full round.
Whirlwind Attack: Spend two action points to make a second attack against every opponent you strike during your whirlwind attack. The second attack is made at a -5 penalty.
Two Weapon Fighting: When making a standard attack, spend one action point to attack with your off-hand weapon.
Combat Reflexes: When making an attack of opportunity, spend one action point to stop the enemies movement.
Improved Trip: When making a succesful attack, immediately spend an action point to gain a free trip attempt. You don't need to make a touch attack, and do not gain a follow up attack.
Weapon Finesse: When making an attack with a finessable weapon, spend an action point to double the weapons base damage (including enhancement bonus, but bonus granted from strength, feats or sneak attack)
Improved Unarmed: When making an unarmed attack, spend one action point to initiate a trip or grapple attempt.
Weapon Focus: When using your focussed weapon, spend one action point to gain one reroll for 3 rounds
Weapon Specialisation: Doubling your weapons damage costs only one action point.

 

[Remus Lupin]

On the power bump issue: Somebody may have mentioned this earlier in the thread, but this is starting to bother me less and less, since XP progression is slower in Pathfinder. So, if I want to run "Sunless Citadel" as is, my players may get a bit of an advantage early on, but with the slower XP progression, the farther on they go, the more they will be evenly matched with the challenges, if the adventures are run "as is."

I think this is a boon to "backward compatibility," even given the initial power bump, and if course, if things still aren't challenging enough, you can change to an even slower XP progression.

Again, this doesn't help in the initial encounters, except insofar as it makes them more "survivable," but it should even out over the long run, or am I missing something?

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I have the impression this "power bump" all over is one step in trying to lessen the "christmas tree" problem..internalize some of the effects of magical boosters, and you can make them rarer down the line without affecting backwards compatibility too much.

 

[bowbe]

I noticed a couple "anti" power bumps that I thought were nice.

One in particular was that they brought down power attack to the realm of sanity again.

Add your strength bonus vs. adding your level, double your strength bonus for two handed is a smarter way to go. I argued this in that so called "3.5 proofread" a zillion years ago. It still chucks on a big grip of damage without being rediculous.

I got poo'ed down when I pointed out how broken that was for 3.5 by the dev's and everyone else. So I said fine, thank you for making it that much easier to kill PCs!

Basically it forces fighter types to use a little more of their other feats and abilities in combat than just maxing their power attack and hoping for a nat 20 to end the combat.

I would caution Pathfinder RPG dev's against offering too many "armor proficiencies" to the fighter however. Nothing is more obnoxious than a fighter in the 12-14 range than a fighter with an armor class in the mid 30's, except maybe a barbarian of 16th-18th that can't fail a save. Reason? It creates another form of power creep where you have to rely on scores of monsters that are +25 or so to hit in order to create a challenge that can land a blow an average of 50% of the time. Thats going to be a high casualty combat and things can go bad very quickly for the party or the DMs well planned encounter.

If said fighter fails a save vs. domination, that leaves the PCs with a foe that has an AC in the mid to high 30's.

At the same time I'd kind of like to see a "natural armor bonus" in its place available to rangers, barbarians, fighters or whatever that do not stack with heavy armor.

Casey

 

[AllisterH]

I have the impression this "power bump" all over is one step in trying to lessen the "christmas tree" problem..internalize some of the effects of magical boosters, and you can make them rarer down the line without affecting backwards compatibility too much.

That won't work at all.

If the Paizo class has the money, there's nothing preventing them from spending the money on the Xmas tree items just like before.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Well, you could forbid "stacking," say, armor proficiencies with magical armor bonuses. Then again, a lot depends on how free the campaign setting/adventure/dm are with handing out "Christmas tree" items. Played rightly, this could allow a DM to run a low-magic item campaign without seriously disadvantaging players.

 

[Mark]

Hiya, Casey! Been a while since I saw you on the boards. I seem to recall your cautioning about Power Attack back in the day.


Got a question for you, please . . .

At the same time I'd kind of like to see a "natural armor bonus" in its place available to rangers, barbarians, fighters or whatever that do not stack with heavy armor.

What justification were you thinking provides this natural armor bonus?


Thanks!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That won't work at all.

If the Paizo class has the money, there's nothing preventing them from spending the money on the Xmas tree items just like before.

I agree, but I can see two possible fixes:
- Throw away all enhancement boosters (inlcuding +X weapons)
- Rename these class bonus to enhancement bonus to attack/damage/Armor.

Each has its drawbacks, "thematically" speaking, but might solve a few problems in the overpowerment department. (But note: Freed resources can still be spend on the remaing booster items. But since cost scale quadratically, this might not become a big issue.)

But: Do all classes get these bonus to their "shticks" (which means attacks and AC)? If not, you don't really get any big benefit.


By the way: Different XP advancement doesn't really help the compatibility issue. Adventures are typically listed with their expected levels, not average XP values. And this also means that using CR as a tool for creating your own adventures gets problematic, since you always have to keep in mind a "Pathfinder Offset" for CRs/levels. And what if people begin to publish new Pathfinder Monster Book? Do they balance by 3.5 Core or with Pathfinder Core? Do you have to "double-stat" all monsters?

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

That won't work at all.

If the Paizo class has the money, there's nothing preventing them from spending the money on the Xmas tree items just like before.

Uh, the DM can stop it real easily.

Just because it's in the book doesn't mean they have to be able to buy it.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

That won't work at all.

If the Paizo class has the money, there's nothing preventing them from spending the money on the Xmas tree items just like before.

Yes, there is? The same thing that could prevent this from happening in 3.X , too? The DM. You know, the guy who controls everything outside of the player's purview (and in 3.X, magical item acquisition is not yet the purview of the players. Creation, yep...but there's only so many XP sinks a PC wizard will create for his fellows as well ). He simply would have been shot down at some point for intentionally weakening his players' characters, or be forced to play beneath the "standard" D&D power level.

With a handful of internalized powers and bonuses, the DM can easily keep the power level at "standard" without having to hand out the magical bling in spades just because the PCs wave with big bags of gold at the next City.