Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Alpha "crunch" discussion

[Remus Lupin]

Point taken, but in the grand scheme of things, keeping in mind a "Pathfinder Offset" is a rather minor adjustment to have to make when taking "backwards compatibility" into account. As for using new monsters from "Pathfinder" themed books, that doesn't strike me as a big deal either, since it doesn't necessarily affect the "backwards compatibility" issue. You'd use new monsters in new adventures, and backwards compatibility would be more an issue with using old adventures.

A more vexing question is this: What if I want to use 3.X character classes with Pathfinder RPG adventures? You'd have to work the "Pathfinder Offset" in the other direction.

 

[AllisterH]

You guys DO realize that the armour and weapon bumps only apply to the fighter right?

What happens when the DM has to still give out stat boosters for the other members in the fighter's party to match the opponents that the fighter can tangle with? He's just going to ignore the fighter?

 

[BryonD]

What happens when the DM has to still give out stat boosters for the other members in the fighter's party to match the opponents that the fighter can tangle with? He's just going to ignore the fighter?

Who says he has to?
I've always seen dealing with party strengths and weaknesses as a very good thing. The homogenization trend in 4e is high on the list of things that put me off.

 

[AllisterH]

Who says he has to?
I've always seen dealing with party strengths and weaknesses as a very good thing. The homogenization trend in 4e is high on the list of things that put me off.

True, but what's exactly preventing the barbarian or paladin giving the fighter their old equipment?

That said, it would be somewhat weird that the fighter player gets singled out by not getting the good gear. Let's see, Hank the ranger gets a new bow, Shiela the thief gets some cool gauntlets, Presto the mage gets a headband of intellect and I, the fighter get a decanter of endless water".

Yeah, that's not going to work over 20 levels. Hell, i doubt it would work over 5. Admittedly hyperbole but I hope you see my point.

Unless EVERYONE gets the stat bumps, a DM is going to be hardpressed to handwave this away.

People may mock the math but everything comes back to it. With this new bump for the fighter, at 11th level, the +3/+2 bonus to AC/weapon actually decreases the sweet spot as the difference between a fighter and a non-fighter full BAB class assuming both have magical weapons.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

You guys DO realize that the armour and weapon bumps only apply to the fighter right?

What happens when the DM has to still give out stat boosters for the other members in the fighter's party to match the opponents that the fighter can tangle with? He's just going to ignore the fighter?

Each class already has its very own means to match the opponents the fighter can tangle with in a 1-on-1, in your face, sword on mug kind of way. Magic-users (as a general category) use their magic to either battle them from afar, or use it on themselves to wade into melee, or simply use it on the fighter to make him better/tougher/harder to hit. Rogues don't wade into melee either, they try to stay in the shadows and strike from there, using sneak attacks and ranged weapons to incapacitate foes. As a DM, I don't have to give out stat boosters or any other kind of magical bling to make the other classes "equal to the fighter"...what I have to do (and that's my job as DM) is to make sure that every class in the group is equally challenged by an encounter in their field of profession. That doesn't require making them all clones of each other in context of stats, combat bonuses, AC or hit points.

Pathfinder grants (unnamed) attack bonuses and additional armor/shield bonuses to the fighter because the fighter NEEDS them the most, being the class that (out of the 4 presented) is the one supposed to slug it out with the monsters toe to toe most of the time. Pathfinder grants school abilities and at-will cantrips to wizards to enable them to contribute magically to every situation (in order to keep them from having to buy a crossbow ). Pathfinder grants clerics at-will orisons and changed Turning to a burst of positive energy that harms undead and heals living creatures to enable him to stabilize and heal his allies without stuffing himself with Cure spells or CLW wands and potions. and the rogue is given more rogue abilities to make him a bit less dependent on heaps of skill points to get by. The part that internalized abilities will lessen the dependence of each class on magical items doesn't pop up just with the fighter, as you can see. They already propose a higher net bonus on stats from the race alone, every race granting a +2 net bonus to one ability. That alone is a nice boon to any 1st level character, and means you don't have to pump up that ability with magic soon.

 

[dystmesis]

Doesn't wish still have an XP cost in 3.5? If so, then this just frees up a 9th level spell slot, nothing more.

Pathfinder wizards get it as a spell-like ability, and spell-like abilities have no exp cost.

 

[AllisterH]

. The part that internalized abilities will lessen the dependence of each class on magical items doesn't pop up just with the fighter, as you can see. They already propose a higher net bonus on stats from the race alone, every race granting a +2 net bonus to one ability. That alone is a nice boon to any 1st level character, and means you don't have to pump up that ability with magic soon.

I don't think you really understand the big magic item problem.

The Big Six are the BEST items you can get for your buck. The original 3.0 monsters, especially at high levels, DIDN"T assume that parties would be statted out like that. A good example would be the Pit Fiend whose CR dopped in 3.5 as well as latter monsters which for their CR would stomp their original 3.0 CR-equivalent counterparts.

If the main classes get more powerful, this doesn't mean that the player of a wizard is going to say "ok, I'm powerful enough, I'll spend/trade/use that non-Big Six item". He's going to still choose the Headband of Intellect because given its price when compared to anything else, it IS the best item for that cost.

Thus, end result, more powerful wizard requires more powerful monster which plays havoc with 3.5 characters.

You're encouraging an arms race and I'm not sure why Pathfinder is doing this

BTW, what's up with the gnome's hair colour?

 

[Pinotage]

Expand the cantrip rules for higher level spells.

Interesting. One of the things I'd considered was to simply give all classes more feats, but constrain some of those to reserve feats. Not quite the same, but it gives you something to play with. Still, I like the idea of having a few useful spells around at all times, although the effect on game balance will have to be considered. Having unlimited access to certain spells could just be too much.

Effect on game balance is limited, but certainly existing. Note that you with the infinite cure minor orison Wand of Cure Light Wounds are history anyway. (and if cure minor is to slow to your taste, at 6th level cure light wounds itself should do the job.)

Actually, Pathfinder RPG doesn't have Cure Minor Wounds. It's been replaced by Stabalize.

On the whole, the 15 minute day is very difficult to get around (without DM pacing, which happens in all games I've been in in any case) without vastly upsetting the power curve. And on the other side, if you do allow all day adventuring, you're stuck with the opposite problem of 1, 2 or even 3 levels in one day (Imagine a Mega Dungeon). There has to be a limited factor somewhere - with Vancian magic you just have to find it.

Pinotage

 

[BryonD]

True, but what's exactly preventing the barbarian or paladin giving the fighter their old equipment?

Nothing. That was my point....

Yeah, that's not going to work over 20 levels. Hell, i doubt it would work over 5. Admittedly hyperbole but I hope you see my point.

No, I don't.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I haven't looked at the rules in detail yet, but what I did see was a very noticable power bump. To me, that's not fixing a problem, that's causing a problem.

I wanted to add my voice to those who agreed with this statement. I imagine 1st-level characters to be only somewhat more talented than the average peasant. He's young and starting a new life. Maybe he'll become local or national hero in the coming years, and then an important lord in his twilight years. Or maybe he'll be worm food. What he should not be is a gimicky killing machine right out of the starting gates, which is one of my main beefs with 3.0, 3.5, and now this 3.75. I know a lot of folks here prefer this video gamey style of play, and I do very much like Paizo's work, but I don't think this will be for me. Oh, and I don't like the WoW way the elves are presented.