Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder: Encounter Design Simplified

[Wulf Ratbane]

Sorry, Double Post.

Anyway, there is a problem, if I take the table from page 135 of the DMG and assume all the gold goes into magic items (which is not true but it seems everytime I've seen a group make high level characters that's what they do), subtract 1/25th that amount, then the low level table looks like this for the adventure budget:

1 = 96
2 = 114
3 = 92
4 = 84
5 = 40
6 = 80
7 = 40
8 = 120

Then it increases normally. So what's to be done?

The Encounter Budget has nothing to do with treasure or magic items. I don't know what you're doing, but stop.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

No, it's not intended to recalculate CRs, or the assumptions built into them, in any way.



That does sound like the sort of thing I'd do, doesn't it.

It does. Happy to see you're doing the work.

The fighters are still going to have no trouble hitting the monsters with their primary attack; but here again, damage is going to go down unless you do something with both power attack and iterative attacks.

Oddly enough, as a player, I was always more interested in having the party magic item crafter increase the base enhancement bonus on my weapon, and not adding things like elemental, alignment, and bane damage. But I am not sure in retrospect that was the way to go

I thought similar. I really got the impression that my to-hit mattered more then anything else - if you look just at the "percentages" of what a +x to hit or a +1d6 to damage does it. But if the attack chances are really 95 % at higher levels, this assumption was wrong... (Holy, though, was always a good bargain...)

 

[Johnny Angel]

I have myself recently been thinking that we need an alternative to the wealth-by-level system. At the time I thought it represented advanced thinking in the game, since the GM now had guidelines for how much magic the party had, but in practice it has quickly turned into a major constraint. It takes the motivation out of earning money, since if you start getting too wealthy, the GM will try to throttle the loot for a while. Where quirky magic items used to come to define a character, these days they're all sold off to find room in the wealth-by-level budget for generic items that boost core combat-related stats, resulting in characters that are more powerful, but also more boring.

It occurred to me that I could go through and assign CR value to magic items, using the guidelines in Grim Tales: Creature Creation for the relative CR value of special abilities as though they were innate abilities. Then, instead of a budget for magic items, I'd just hand out XP based on CR adjusted for magic items. Of course, I'd want something similar for my d20 Future game, given that the difference between a mook with a stun baton and a mook with relatively cheaply available plasma grenade is not reflected by the challenge rating. Eggshells with hammers is one thing. Eggshells with rocket launchers and mass reaction tipped warheads is another.

 

[ruemere]

Ok, you sit down and design a challenging encounter for a party of 5 consisting of 3 PCs at 8th level, one 7th, and one 6th; encounter consisting of one CR8 boss, two CR5, and a smattering of CR2s.

We'll see who finishes faster.

Umm, you're a bit vague on whether your party of canonical or skewed spread. My encounter design philoshophy is that I always have a look PCs abilities and then build something around their strengths. Of course, I am in priviledged position of long lasting campaign GM.

That said, let's have a little fun. First, several disclaimers:
- I'm going to use only basic MM monsters,
- since I don't know the spread of builds or power levels of the character, I'm going to attempt build into encounter several safety devices thus decreasing challenging factor a bit.

It's 22:30 GMT+1, time start

1. Looking at monster types.
cr8 - Blue Slaad (boss abilities)
cr5 - Orc Druid level 5th (support)
cr5 - Orc Fighter level 5th (chieftain)
cr2 x 10 - Orc Warrior level 3rd (cannon fodder)

2. (22:45, though I had to take a break to help my kid back to sleeping) Encounter setting.
Indy Jones, Jungle Temple, the background:
- Orc tribe worships its god (Blue Slaad), who, thanks to their faith, can freely move around temple and surroundings without chance of being whisked back to its chaotic plane.
- Slaad actually likes being here (think Predator) and likes having worhisppers.
- Druid is the local priest here. He's also a scout who actually keeps vigil watching out for dangerous monsters. He's a firm supporter of Slaad, since the extraplanar monstrosity easily deals with most hostile denizens of the jungle.
- Opponents goals are simple: eat or steal or coerce what they can from anyone passing through. If the opponent proves to be too strong, flee or snipe.
- Temple: Clearing with a large pit filled with smoldering embers - Entrance (Pit Trap with Spikes) - Sleeping Quarters (smelly) - Altar area with hidden exit to the roof of the temple.

3. (22:50) Fleshing stats:
- Slaad: typical
- Druid - use PcGen to use standard 5th level druid, add stat adjustments based on Orc race
- Druid - choose spells: Entanglex2, Obscuring Mist, Plant Growth (rest: healing spells)
- Druid - Wild shape: one bird of prey, one leopard (big cat)
- Druid - items - poison for everyone (simple poison type - herbal, decreases dexterity, primary: 1d3 temporary Dex, secondary --, wounds only)
- Chieftain (see above). On a whim, make him a her. And call her Brunhild. And add that she dyes her hair yellow.
- Warrior fodder. Typical Orcs with 1 level of Barbarian. Everyone adds Tough Feat, takes several ranks in Hide and Wilderness Lore (as many points as PcGen allows) and climbing.
- Equipement: basic, no armors, ranged: blowpipes (poison), basic weapons

4. (23:20 - yeah, that's 20 minutes with such a simple encounter) Tactics time:

- phase one - gauging characters - the characters are attacked with small projectiles (painted animal skulls, pointy pieces of wood inserted into skulls ascertain that anyone hit or handling the skulls without care risks being poisoned) from above - 3-4 orcs with high
- opponents evade engagement, druid watches party for spellcasters and mobile/jungle-savvy types
- opponents flee in the direction of the temple
- druid uses entagle to slow down pursuers
- safety one: if the characters were significantly hit with poisoned skulls, they may elect not to pursue

- phase two - temple showdown - if the character pursue, the druid determines initial targets for Slaad abilities and turns into bird in order to reach temple before PCs and in order to inform the Slaad
- the Slaad assumes position on the roof of the temple to have a nice view from above
- fleeing orcs assume battle positions around the entrance to the temple (trap: pit with spikes in the entrance) - flee into temple (around pit trap) if the characters are taking too long to approach
- the orc boss assumes position just beyond the pit
- the druid is waiting with Slaad
- once most of the PCs are close enough for the Slaad to spot them, Druid uses Entangle again, trying to capture PCs within range of attacks by Orc defenders.
- Slaad will use Telekinesis on those not caught by Entangle to lift the characters up and drop into large pit
- Druid will use Plant Growth if the Entangle proves to be ineffective or if the party outmaneuvers Orcs or if the party ranged attacks prove to be too effective. He will heal Slaad of any damage
- Slaad cannot flee the temple/temple surroundings, but will attempt to pick characters the predatory style

5. (23:30) Treasure - standard.

6. Complications (and safety devices):
- temple roof will partially collapse if it suffers more than 20 points of damage (hardness: 20) thus eliminating Slaad's hiding place (Slaad will attempt to move into branches of surrounding trees stealthily - no combat actions for several rounds). Orc Chieftain and Orcs will withdraw into temple (no damage from falling roof, but the Entrance and Sleeping quarters count as difficult terrain from now on)
- safety device - Orcs are not heroes and will flee if 5 of them die/lose consciousness
- safety device - Orcs will parley if they are offered treasures (remember: their goal is to profit, not to lose needlessly lives over one close call)
- Orc Chieftain hides in darkness of the entrance waiting to bull rush anyone passing the pit into the pit
- safety device - breaking or consecrating altar will send Slaad back to its dimension

Over: 23:31. One hours, 1 minute.
Stats are ready (could be faster if I used ready templated NPCs).

Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Errors

 

[Dragonblade]

Just an observation, but how is this XP system not just a copy of the 4e XP system but with different numbers and a CR to XP conversion chart?

 

[Wicht]

Just an observation, but how is this XP system not just a copy of the 4e XP system but with different numbers and a CR to XP conversion chart?

First of all, in order to copy the 4e XP system, people would have had to have seen the 4e XP system before drafting their own. This was released a couple of months ago.

Second of all, this system is a derivative of the 3e XP charts and CR. Maybe the 4e system is also a similar derivative but I haven't seen it so I wouldn't know.

Third of all, if the system uses different numbers and the 3e CR how can it be a copy? Are you suggesting 4e uses identical math?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Just an observation, but how is this XP system not just a copy of the 4e XP system but with different numbers and a CR to XP conversion chart?

Err... How is 4e not just a copy of 3e except with "different numbers?"

The numbers... they kinda matter.

 

[Dragonblade]

Err... How is 4e not just a copy of 3e except with "different numbers?"

The numbers... they kinda matter.

Except 3e never had an encounter budget system that used XP. That was a 4e innovation known about for some time.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Except 3e never had an encounter budget system that used XP. That was a 4e innovation known about for some time.

Yes, that's correct.

Works for 3e too, inasmuch as the CR system is trustworthy.

If you're trying to insinuate that the design is inspired by 4e, well... duh.

 

[Dragonblade]

First of all, in order to copy the 4e XP system, people would have had to have seen the 4e XP system before drafting their own. This was released a couple of months ago.

A couple of months? This thread was started 3 days ago.