Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder: Encounter Design Simplified

[Wulf Ratbane]

No TPKs at this point...

Hang on, somethings wrong...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If folks are interested, I've posted a free preview of Trailblazer in honor of GM's Day.

Those of you who have been following my posts closely, in this forum and others, have likely seen most of the featured content-- but there is at least one new section there (Customizing Monsters) that is brand new.

Link is in the sig.

 

[Merlin's Shadow]

If folks are interested, I've posted a free preview of Trailblazer in honor of GM's Day.

Those of you who have been following my posts closely, in this forum and others, have likely seen most of the featured content-- but there is at least one new section there (Customizing Monsters) that is brand new.

Link is in the sig.

Thanks, Wulf! Even if parts of it are a retread, it's still nice to have it all collected.

 

[Alzrius]

Okay, having downloaded the preview, I've been looking it over for a little bit. I'm absolutely loving it so far, but there are a few things I wanted to ask about.

I don't quite understand the "XP Awards Per Creature" section of Encounter Budgeting. Table 3 there has a markedly increased XP amount necessary for each level. However, the amount of XP gained for defeating monsters is the same (or reduced, if you treat the values in Table 2 as being how much XP a monster of a given CR is worth), so I'm not sure how well this would work over 13.33 encounters. Can you explain that section a little more clearly?

Also, in the Customizing Monsters section, Example #3 (though oddly, there is no sub-heading for Example #1) notes that when adding barbarian class features to a monster, you also add in the numerical calculation for a barbarian's iterative attacks. Why add the iterative attack value also, if you're only adding the class abilities? Iterative attack value wasn't added in the previous example, where you gave the monster cleric spellcasting and class features. I don't understand the rational there.

As an aside, are the numerical deconstructions of class features and monster stats based on v.5 of Craig Cochrane's system of measuring CR, or v.6?

Beyond all of that, it looks great! When's the estimated release date for the full product?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Okay, having downloaded the preview, I've been looking it over for a little bit. I'm absolutely loving it so far, but there are a few things I wanted to ask about.

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to answer them here.

I don't quite understand the "XP Awards Per Creature" section of Encounter Budgeting. Table 3 there has a markedly increased XP amount necessary for each level. However, the amount of XP gained for defeating monsters is the same (or reduced, if you treat the values in Table 2 as being how much XP a monster of a given CR is worth), so I'm not sure how well this would work over 13.33 encounters. Can you explain that section a little more clearly?

First of all, the chart is adjusted to require "Challenging" encounters as the baseline, rather than "Average." (Because that's how Pathfinder will do it moving forward.)

So let's look at a 1st level party.

Each 1st level PC contributes 60 XP to the budget. That gets you a baseline budget of 240 XP.

Note here that you could fulfill that with a single CR1 creature-- 240 XP. That would be an average encounter-- four PCs vs. one CR equivalent creature.

But we want to adjust our budget for a Challenging encounter. The multiplier for that is x3/2, which brings our total budget to (240)(3/2) = 360 XP. From this we could buy six CR1/4 creatures (60 XP each) or three CR1/2 creatures (120 XP each) and so on.

So there you have a Challenging encounter worth 360 XP.

Divide that among the four PCs and they each earn 90 XP for this one encounter.

Now multiply that out across 13.33 encounters (40/3, actually) and you'll get 1200. Thus, after 13.33 encounters of this difficulty, each PC will earn 1200 XP and make 2nd level.

To extrapolate the chart, just continue down the line. A challenging EL2 encounter would be worth 135 XP per PC. 13.33 such encounters would earn a 2nd level PC a total of 1800 XP. Thus, the new XP total to make 3rd level would be 1200 (what you already earned getting to 2nd level) + 1800 XP = 3000 XP.

And so on.

Also, in the Customizing Monsters section, Example #3 (though oddly, there is no sub-heading for Example #1) notes that when adding barbarian class features to a monster, you also add in the numerical calculation for a barbarian's iterative attacks. Why add the iterative attack value also, if you're only adding the class abilities? Iterative attack value wasn't added in the previous example, where you gave the monster cleric spellcasting and class features. I don't understand the rational there.

Looks like an error I made out of an abundance of caution. (Giants already have iterative attacks factored into their CR.)

But it is worth noting that the new calculation would put it at +0.4666, which I'd still round up to +1 CR.

Again, out of an abundance of caution, but also to make sure that the PCs are adequately compensated for a fight that is certainly more difficult than a vanilla hill giant.

As an aside, are the numerical deconstructions of class features and monster stats based on v.5 of Craig Cochrane's system of measuring CR, or v.6?

They are an extension-- it's not fair to compare them to either v5 or v6.

Call it the TLAR method.

I don't believe CR is nearly as precise as Craig does, nor does it need to be. Craig's method is a bit like designing a targeting system that can aim a bomb to the nearest inch.

Beyond all of that, it looks great! When's the estimated release date for the full product?

Reposted from a similar question in the Publisher's Forum:

Pre-GenCon and pre-Pathfinder. It depends on how much (good) feedback we get from playtesting.

My plan is to offer a "Trailblazer Only" PDF version, which includes only the changes (and relevant design essays). The Trailblazer PDF will be priced in accordance with the value I have invested in the work.

I will also offer a "Trailblazer Complete" print-on-demand version that includes all relevant portions of the SRD in one place-- but priced just enough to include the additional cost of hard-copy printing. In other words, if you want the printed version for the sake of completeness at the table, you won't pay for reprinted and unchanged portions of the SRD. I'll just eat whatever it costs me in man hours to lay that out in a single work. (Assuming I'm otherwise still gainfully employed by then...)

Ultimately, my recommendation for anyone who is already planning on buying the printed version of Pathfinder would be to do that-- just buy the printed version of Pathfinder, and use that as your printed reference at the table.

Let me be clear: I wholeheartedly support Pathfinder as the rightful heir and "hard copy" repository of 3e knowledge moving forward.

 

[Scott DeWar]

Keep on trail blaizing Wulf! doin great!

 

[kitsune9]

I think you're onto something here Wulf. Good job.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

My plan is to offer a "Trailblazer Only" PDF version, which includes only the changes (and relevant design essays). The Trailblazer PDF will be priced in accordance with the value I have invested in the work.

I will also offer a "Trailblazer Complete" print-on-demand version that includes all relevant portions of the SRD in one place-- but priced just enough to include the additional cost of hard-copy printing. In other words, if you want the printed version for the sake of completeness at the table, you won't pay for reprinted and unchanged portions of the SRD. I'll just eat whatever it costs me in man hours to lay that out in a single work. (Assuming I'm otherwise still gainfully employed by then...)

Would you consider offering a pdf version of the "Trailblazer Complete"? Print on demand is nice if you happen to live in a country like the U.S., but living in New Zealand for example, it's just not economical. If it's being shipped from some place like Lulu, shipping (with tracking) costs over $100.

That's in U.S. dollars. Add in the exchange rate, and you pay over $200 just for shipping from Lulu.

It also doesn't take into account the additional taxes that are applied. that comes out of my pocket once the product arrives here.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Holy Crap D00d, I just downloaded the free preview and I've got to say that this is one of the reasons that I love the 3.5 system, MODS and ALTERATIONS. It's also good for me to see the math behind some of this stuff. I was already using your Encounter design charts for my games. An entire PDF of stuff like that? FULL OF AWESOME.

I'll be picking this up when it comes out.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Would you consider offering a pdf version of the "Trailblazer Complete"? Print on demand is nice if you happen to live in a country like the U.S., but living in New Zealand for example, it's just not economical. If it's being shipped from some place like Lulu, shipping (with tracking) costs over $100.

Yeah, of course. The work is already done.

Holy Crap D00d, I just downloaded the free preview and I've got to say that this is one of the reasons that I love the 3.5 system, MODS and ALTERATIONS. It's also good for me to see the math behind some of this stuff. I was already using your Encounter design charts for my games. An entire PDF of stuff like that? FULL OF AWESOME.

I'll be picking this up when it comes out.

Glad you like it.