Pathfinder OGL/3.5 RPG system from Paizo

[Wulf Ratbane]

You're right- that's what I was thinking of. Still, there isn't the explanation of what CR and EL means in the SRD, though, right? Like there is in the DMG?

Not that I know of-- but remember, that's not an impediment to design. If you could only use things in the SRD there would be no design other than the SRD.

If not, then they could conceivably still do some work to define it on their own terms, and thus possibly achieve a better balance of CR like people are suggesting.

CR, with respect to EL and encounter building, is deeply flawed. Fixing Encounter Design is at the top of my own design list-- and I hope it's on Paizo's.

It's a real bitch.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I'm keeping an eye on this thread (as are others here at Paizo) and I've read every single post. This is a great, lively discussion and I'm enjoying reading everyone's feedback (good or bad!). I want to mention a few quick items and then I'll duck back out of the discussion:

Before you duck completely out, Joshua, a quick question for you (or any of your cohorts at Paizo):

Is Paizo limiting this playtest and feedback to the community, or are you all working with/talking to other 3rd party publishers who may have an interest in additional 3.X rules support for their own products, and taking feedback from them?

I'm curious as to the extent (if any) of the Open Source movement among the 3rd party publishers as it pertains to the existing D20/OGL, primarily.

Won't have any real bearing on whether I decide to go 4E or not (I'm not), but I'm curious as to what kind of support Pathfinder RPG might be getting from other publishers.

 

[nutluck]

Wanted to reply to a couple of the comments below.

Sure, but let me turn the tables again, and posit that, had 3.75 come from WotC instead of Paizo, a lot of the same people who are lauding Paizo now would probably be griping non-stop about WotC's evil empire.

I am sure some people would, but most people I know that are against 4e right now. It is not cause of one change here or there even some of the stuff they hate they could live with. It is the sheer number of changes. If WotC had only made half the changes they did I think a lot more people would be pro-4e from what I have read by the anti-4e crowd. Myself included and my gaming group, we all do have similar tastes in game so no big shock there.

That said, I still find this issue of "support" kind of bizarre. Were I interested in playing 3.5, there's enough product in existence right now to keep me entertained for probably the next 20 years. That someone suggested the idea of eBay "drying up" is pretty laughable considering you can still buy '80s-era 1e and basic products in mass quantities.

True but their is a difference from having to go search Ebay for a book and being able to find it or just happen to see it on the shelf of your LGS or bookstore. They might not get a lot of new people but having the book out in places where people actively look for games sure can't hurt.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

The alpha doc already has some of this, FYI.

Thought I saw something in there- haven't gotten that far in my reading yet (just a preliminary perusal, now I'm going in depth from page one down).

 

[Nellisir]

I just don't think WotC is over-estimating anything.

Right now, I think you both are just flapping your lips about something neither one has any actual facts about. WotC clearly isn't omniscient; enough people have slammed their "marketing" of 4e for that to be obvious. And Pathfinder isn't "just" another d20 spin-off; it's a d20 spin-off coming out at just the right time. 4e is going to do great. Pathfinder isn't going to cut into WotC's sales - it's not even releasing until over a year later! If Pathfinder affects WotC, it'll affect supplements and future "core" releases.

It's not an either/or proposition; most Pathfinder customers will probably also be WotC customers. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

And on a different topic; I also understood Alpha and Beta to be free on pdf, and Omega to be...not free.

 

[nutluck]

I have to agree with buzz here. I would laud Paizo's move if they had simply decided to continue to create 3.5 compatible Pathfinder adventures. Going into the rulebook business seems 1) unnecessary and 2) disadvantageous.

Have to comment about this too. I disagree and here's why. I play old World of Darkness and help a friend run a online chat site for the game. The site is still going on playing with the old rules, we are getting fewer and fewer new people though. But the big reason we are? We require the people to own the old revised books and we have had more than a few people express a interest in playing and have trouble finding the books.

I see 4e more along the ways I seen the WoD change. yeah WoD still sold a lot and WW did well but far more people stuck with the old WoD than was expected. Enough a whole host of online sites still run with those rules and out number the new WoD sites... least the last time last summer I hunted around for sites.

now I am not saying Paizo is going to take down WotC or ruin 4e, thats silly. But I do think there is enough people that will stick with it, espically if some other 3rd party publishers jump on the wagon. Such as Privateer Press with Iron Kingdoms, Conan by Mongoose(next time they revise it) ect. That they will stay in business and do well, but if they didn't make a new core book I believe it would eventually fail like old WoD is finally starting to do. With the new core book there will always be a set of rules to buy for new people.

Now it still might fail eventually only time will tell but I think a new core book will extend that time by a noticible degree.

of course in 10 or 15 years we all might be playing DnD in VR gadgets too for all i know.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

All I have to say is: I like options.

The market has already fragmented. It had even before 4e with C&C and True 20 and many other systems. The only difference now is that there are larger and more numerous cracks.

With several members of my old group vehemently denouncing 4e, if I ever try to get that group back together, this might be an option. If not I'll probably stick with 3.5 and many old copies of Dungeon my friend never got to use and has loaned to me.

Good luck to Paizo. I hope this turns out well for you and everyone who plays it.

 

[ThirdWizard]

You mean backward compatibility?

The general way the game breaks down at high levels. My theory is that there is one major thing that breaks the game at high levels: the spell heal, but that is a long post (the end result of which being that the game is fundamentally broken beginning in the teens because of it), and I'd better not get into it here!

I don't know how they would fix it exactly. I don't demand miracles! But, the Pathfinder RPG (Alpha) seems to make the problem worse to me.

 

[BryonD]

I just don't think WotC is over-estimating anything.

Fair enough. I have no knowledge of WotC's estimations and that wasn't the best possible choice of words.

I think 4E's popularity will be less than they hoped. That isn't a crash and burn prediction.

 

[SteveC]

What? The context of this statement is people who are interested in staying with 3X. If SteveC is right then people will be changing "just because".

I just wanted to say that "just because" is certainly not the primary reason I believe people will change. Certainly new people who start playing D&D will be playing 4E, but that's because it's what's on the shelf. I am also sure that there will be many people who will try it out to see what's new and enjoy it enough to keep playing.

For me, and for a lot of ENWorlders, we'll be switching because 4E fixes problems that we had with 3X. I haven't played the full game yet, but from what I have seen, it will allow me to better tell the kind of stories that I want to tell.

I'm sure there are other reasons for changing over as well, and as to what percentage of people will switch for which reason, I have no idea. I will say, for the record, that most people will change, and that the number of people who keep playing 3X will steadily decrease. I'd happily make a gentleman's wager on this if I had any way to verify the numbers.

Will this be enough for Paizo to stay in business? I have no idea. I don't know what kind of print runs their products have, but if we're talking 3-5000 copies, I would say it's extremely unlikely that you'll see that many books moving for a single adventure any more.


--Steve