Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

[Parmandur]

1) yes.
2) if you want prices in gp and items in tables you are in luck, they are in the book as well.

Arguably, if you are into that sort of thing? Seems kind of like Diablo to me.

 

[Parmandur]

I think the problem would be imagining a giant table where all the mundane armors, all the special material armors (dragonhide, adamantine, mithril) and all the magical armors in the game were listed in order of price/level with the assumption that PCs would just buy/get the best armor they could wear and afford for their level. That's what Starfinder felt like. Similarly, a weapon table that would assume that at level 3 you might use a steel longsword, but at level 5 you'll use a vicious battleaxe since it does better damage, but then you'll switch back to longsword at level 7 when you can afford a flametouched longsword which does even better damage or has better keywords. I have no problem with upgrading items in a TTRPG, but it feels so baked into PF/SF that it is mind bending.

Yeeeaaaah, bad Diablo flashbacks there...too video gamey.

 

[Zardnaar]

A man ahead of your time.

Well in 2012 I tried out 2E again. I enjoyed it but the surprise was my modern players enjoyed it as well so we played that and clones until 5E landed.

Might have been slightly earlier, we never really transitioned to Pathfinder 100%, more used it for 3.5 House rules. We did buy a few hardcovers right near the end but transitioned to 2E not to long after that and barely used them. I liked Ultimate Magic, Combat and the Inner Sea World Guide but barely used them.

 

[JesterOC]

..Similarly, a weapon table that would assume that at level 3 you might use a steel longsword, but at level 5 you'll use a vicious battleaxe since it does better damage, but then you'll switch back to longsword at level 7 when you can afford a flametouched longsword which does even better damage or has better keywords. I have no problem with upgrading items in a TTRPG, but it feels so baked into PF/SF that it is mind bending.

One of the problems I am having with 5e is a little similar. 5e is very low magic. My players are 8th level and not all of them even have magical weapons*. (I've Been running Tomb of Annihilation). So now in earnest I need to get them something but the last two PCs use an axe and a spear. Well if +1 swords are rare +1 spears are pretty much mythical. If and when they do find those weapons it will totally feel like I just handed them weapons. I have laid the groundwork for a narrative reason to introduce these weapons but it has nothing to do with the adventure itself.

ANYWAY back to Pathfinder 2e. What I love is that weapons become magical due to runes... runes that can be transferred! Presto problems solved. The spear guy finds the body of a fallen knight with a magically flaming sword.. and after a bit of downtime crafting.. his spear is now a flaming spear.

That also means that they can keep their favorite weapons longer, and get them more powerful as time progresses. I love this system for that so much!


*At one point I offered all the players their choice of magic item as a reward, the PC's who don't have a magic weapon chose a +1 shield and a immovable rod. Nice, but it would have been easier if they would have asked for their odd weapon choices.

 

[Aldarc]

Arguably, if you are into that sort of thing? Seems kind of like Diablo to me.

Yeeeaaaah, bad Diablo flashbacks there...too video gamey.

Ah yes. The time-honored priniciple of TTRPG criticism: When you want to disparage something in a TTRPG compare it to a video game.

 

[Parmandur]

Ah yes. The time-honored priniciple of TTRPG criticism: When you want to disparage something in a TTRPG compare it to a video game.

Just because something is a time honored tradition, that doesn't mean that it isn't true. The magic item system, as described, is very video game drop style. Not a fan.

 

[Remathilis]

One of the problems I am having with 5e is a little similar. 5e is very low magic. My players are 8th level and not all of them even have magical weapons*. (I've Been running Tomb of Annihilation). So now in earnest I need to get them something but the last two PCs use an axe and a spear. Well if +1 swords are rare +1 spears are pretty much mythical. If and when they do find those weapons it will totally feel like I just handed them weapons. I have laid the groundwork for a narrative reason to introduce these weapons but it has nothing to do with the adventure itself.

ANYWAY back to Pathfinder 2e. What I love is that weapons become magical due to runes... runes that can be transferred! Presto problems solved. The spear guy finds the body of a fallen knight with a magically flaming sword.. and after a bit of downtime crafting.. his spear is now a flaming spear.

That also means that they can keep their favorite weapons longer, and get them more powerful as time progresses. I love this system for that so much!


*At one point I offered all the players their choice of magic item as a reward, the PC's who don't have a magic weapon chose a +1 shield and a immovable rod. Nice, but it would have been easier if they would have asked for their odd weapon choices.

I actually really like the rune/enchant system of PF2, and it's one of the few ideas that would work in 5e well. Esp with Storm Kings Thunder having a rune magic system that could be emulated to make it work with the idea.

Similarly, I've toyed with the idea of handing out schemas to PCs rather than the actual items, esp for items they really want. Let them make their own cloaks of protection in the style and color they want.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Ah yes. The time-honored priniciple of TTRPG criticism: When you want to disparage something in a TTRPG compare it to a video game.

D&D: go through dungeon levels, kill things, take their randomly-determined-by-Treasure-Type stuff. If it's randomly better than your stuff, swap it, if not, give it to a henchman and increase his loyalty %.
Diablo: you go through dungeon levels, kill things, and they 'drop' items you'll need in the next level.
PF2: go through dungeon levels, kill things, take their progressively-better-by-level stuff & use it to upgrade your stuff.


IDK, sounds like progress, actually.

 

[Azgulor]

Just because something is a time honored tradition, that doesn't mean that it isn't true. The magic item system, as described, is very video game drop style. Not a fan.

Sigh. No, it's not. Either it's been described poorly or your projecting biases on the description.

Item level is a tool for providing GMs guidance regarding the impact treasure can have. For GMs who want to give "meaningful treasure", it ensures that a GM has enough information before giving out an item that is "too high" or "too low".

NOTHING precludes a character from using an item of a level that is higher than their own. From the PFCRB item level section- "there is no limit to the items a character can use" and then an example of a lower level character using a higher level item is provided.

Mechanically, the only thing item level is used for is determining crafting ability. Since level progression is one of PF2s primary character benchmarks, it means that a 1st level character can't make a 10th level item. PF2 allows for greater granularity when bringing abilities online, such as the Proficiency system. If I'm Untrained in the Thievery skill, for example, I can pick pockets but not locks. Once I'm Trained in Thievery, I can now also pick locks and disable traps. So proficiency is one gate, level is another.

I see nothing wrong with a level based game stipulating that a crafter can't make an item above their level.

That's not loot drop design, that's leveraging the design principles of the new edition.

 

[Aldarc]

Just because something is a time honored tradition, that doesn't mean that it isn't true. The magic item system, as described, is very video game drop style. Not a fan.

Either way, it's a shallow criticism.