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Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Stealth Skill Playtest

IronWolf

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Paizo published some playtest rules for the Stealth skill today.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lckz

Stealth Playtest Rules said:
Stealth
(Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.

Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Usually a Stealth check is made at the start of a free, move, or swift action when you start that action with either some kind of cover (except for soft cover) or concealment. You can always spend a swift action to stay immobile and make a Stealth check. You cannot spend a free action to initiate a Stealth check, but if you spend a free action while under the effects of Stealth, you must make a new Stealth check in order to continue the effects of Stealth. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half and up to your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's usually impossible to use Stealth while taking an immediate action, standard action, or a full-round action, unless you are subject to greater invisibility or a similar effect, you are sniping (see below), or you are using a standard action to ready an action. When you make your Stealth check, those creatures that didn't succeed at the opposed roll treat you as invisible until the start of your next action or until the end of your turn if you do not end your turn with cover or concealment. When you use Stealth, creatures that are observing you (creatures that you didn't have cover or concealment from) or that succeed at the opposed check do not treat you as invisible.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Stealth checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.

Attacking from Invisibility: Usually making an attack against a creature ends the invisible condition. If during your last action were invisible to a creature, you are still considered invisible when you make the first attack of that new action.

Other Perception Checks: If a creature makes a Perception check as a move action to notice an invisible creature, the DC of the Perception check is the invisible creature's last Stealth check. This is also the case if a creature makes a Perception check to notice an invisible creature because the perceiving creature is entering an area where it could possibly notice an invisible creature.

Sniping: If you already are invisible to a target and you are 10 feet from that target, as a standard action, you can make one ranged attack against that target and immediately make an opposed Stealth check to stay invisible. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check when attempting to snipe.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: If you do not have cover or concealment, as a standard action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Perception of opponents that can see you. On a success, you become invisible to those creatures and can move up to half your speed. When you do this, you take a –10 penalty on the Bluff check.

Action: Usually making a Stealth check is not an action. Using Stealth is part of the action are taking.

Special: If you are subject to the invisibility or greater invisibility spells or a similar effect, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks while you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Stealth checks while you're moving. If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a bonus on Stealth checks (see Chapter 5).
 
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Near as I can tell, the biggest change is that a successful Stealth check makes you invisible in the eyes of the Target, as in gaining the same condition as a character with the Invisibility spell cast on him. Among other things, this means a rogue could successfully hide behind a column, move silently towards a foe, and Sneak Attack.

It also specifies that creating a diversion to hide is a Bluff vs. Perception check, whereas before it was just a Bluff check, presumably vs. Sense Motive but never stated as such.
 

It also specifies that creating a diversion to hide is a Bluff vs. Perception check, whereas before it was just a Bluff check, presumably vs. Sense Motive but never stated as such.

So...they actually nerfed Stealth, then.

[sblock]Since Perception is the best skill in the game and everything has it. Everything. Bluff has a much higher chance of working against Sense Motive in 99% of cases. nevermind that Bluff is supposed to be opposed by Sense Motive and Perception usually has a penalty for distance, but who knows how it works when it's opposing Bluff. What a mess. And a -10 penalty means it's almost never going to freaking work. WHY does Paizo hate rogues so much? I just don't get it. This also conveniently crushes any monks hoping to scout. A non-class skill tied to a dump stat was rough, but at least most people didn't have Sense Motive anyway? Now? What's the point in even trying to create a diversion to hide as a monk?[/sblock]
 

So...they actually nerfed Stealth, then.

[sblock]Since Perception is the best skill in the game and everything has it. Everything. Bluff has a much higher chance of working against Sense Motive in 99% of cases. nevermind that Bluff is supposed to be opposed by Sense Motive and Perception usually has a penalty for distance, but who knows how it works when it's opposing Bluff. What a mess. And a -10 penalty means it's almost never going to freaking work. WHY does Paizo hate rogues so much? I just don't get it. This also conveniently crushes any monks hoping to scout. A non-class skill tied to a dump stat was rough, but at least most people didn't have Sense Motive anyway? Now? What's the point in even trying to create a diversion to hide as a monk?[/sblock]

I don't get it. Before, when you were not in combat, it was still Stealth vs Perception, wasn't it? Now, you get invisibility when you didn't before.

Before, when you were in combat, it was Bluff vs Sense Motive but you didn't get the invisible quality. Now, you get that quality, but it is harder to get. Better condition but harder to reach... is that a problem? And would it be a problem to houserule Sense Motive into the mix instead of Perception?
 

But you cannot 'get the worse condition' (able to hide) anymore. And making it bluff -10 vs Perception makes it practically impossible to do, without having already improved invisibility cast on you.

BTW, what was the old official condition for being hidden? Total Concealment?
 


It wasn't clearly defined, but most DMs treated it like Invisibility, AFAIK. Because Hide/stealth is to become unseen/unnoticed by others and the sniping application of becoming visibile to them after an attack unless you took an action ad a massive panlty to quickly remain hidden was clearly very similar to the conditions of the Invisibility spell and breaking it. So while it's nice to have it officially declared a non-magical invisibility (that still suddenly goes poof if the obect you're hiding behind gets disintigrated by an enemy wizard or whatever), most games were already treating it that way anyway (again, AFAIK), so it didn't really help much. The new creating a diversion rules absolutely hurt, though.
 

Except the part with perception, i don't see much difference in the skill.

How have you played it until now?

In my game, if a rogue hides behind a colum, he can walk stealthily to the enemy even if there is no cover and attack him, granting a sneak attack if he was unseen.

Was it not correct? If so, how can a rogue sneak near an enemy if there is no cover along ALL the path?
 

By taking a level in Shadowdancer for hide in plain sight. Why they couldn't just make it a rogue talent I don't know, other than that there seems to be a concerted effort to make rogue talents suck.

But yes, you need some osrt of cover or concealment to hide in, normally. From the current stealth skill:

"If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind."


Also, reading the OP, I just noticed the bit about needing to spend actions and make a new stealth check each round just to stay hidden and immobile. That's freaking retarded! If you're not doing anything, your current stealth check should be retained. All that does is slow down gameplay with more rolling and virtually ensure you'll eventually roll a 1 (or roll a 1 the same round the enemy rolls a 20, assuming Perception is also something you'll now get each round, rather than as a one-time reactionary check) some round and get noticed. Yay!
 

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