payn
Glory to Marik
Greetings,
Fighter discussions are all the rage right now. The discussion most on my mind are the pillars of play and the fighter's role. While never exactly hardcoded into the game, pillars have been described as combat, exploration, and social. Some systems have tried to tie mechanics to the pillars (I.E. 4E skill challenges, XE social combat, or PF2 exploration mode) but none have explicitly defined or hardcoded mechanics to systems holistically. My aim is not to do that here in this thread. I am quite comfortable with the ambiguity as both player and GM in the pillars of play. What I do want to talk about are things to do in each pillar and how some classes have greater choice than others. Most importantly, how does the fighter get out of the combat only space? What does a fighter look like in exploration and social pillars of play?
First lets talk about what exploration pillar means. I have heard from many folks they don't really know exactly what to consider exploration. Is it delving dungeons and navigating traps? Is it overland travel and surviving deadly elemental conditions? Is it solving riddles and puzzles? Discovering long lost temples and esoteric knowledge? Tracking animals, monsters, and NPCs? To me the answer is all of that. The skill system since at least 3E, has included a number of skills that assist in these areas. Skills that wont be effective or even useable in combat situations. For example, knowledge skills, disable device/lockpicking, perception, etc... The traditional method is to apply a skill roll to a situation and determine result. If danger is present, immediately or sustained, then saves are used for defense.
Now lets talk about the social pillar. This one tends to make more sense to folks. Working with or against NPCs. Finding information, convincing others, role playing actual personality and interaction. Skills like sense motive, diplomacy, and intimidation have come to be expected in social pillar play. There is also quite a bit of passive methods of social play in feats, backgrounds, traits, etc... Essentially, minor mechanical benefits that are flavored in various ways. Social play tends to move inconsistently between rules and rulings in practice at various tables. This makes social an easy to identify pillar of play, yet a much more ambiguous pillar than exploration and combat. Skills and saves are used for defense often in this pillar of play.
Finally, the combat pillar. The most obvious of pillars. Class, race, feats, skills, means combat receives the most mechanical support. I don't feel its necessary to dive in since its not part of this discussion.
I'll start with casters in the pillar discussion. Casters are easily the most versatile in pillars. Not only do they get access to skills, feats, and backgrounds, but their class feature spells also allows them access to complete utility. You have combat focused spells like magic missile, you have exploration spells like divination, and you have social spells like charm person. Not only can a caster choose tools to help in any given pillar, they can do so every single day. Perhaps that is the essence of a caster class? Magic shapes them in any way they see fit and grant versatility, albeit, in a limited fashion (that becomes less and less so with level..). Casters are the least in need of pillar versatility. In fact, they can be strong or weak at any given time. The most free in mechanical game space of all class types.
Lets move on to skill focused classes like the Rogue and Bard. These classes have a lot of room in skill choice and play to move between pillars. They often sacrifice the ability to be strong or strongest in combat for this versatility. Unlike casters, skill classes make their choices and live with them going forward. Choices only come at level up and possible retraining rules based on system and or table GM allowance. One thing interesting with skill classes, they often have built in class features that give them a boost in pillar play that casters and martials often do not have. Rogues have their sneak attack and skill boosts, Bards their performance based buffs and debuffs etc..
Finally, we have the marital classes. Some are heavily defined by class abilities like the ranger and paladin. Others, a little less so like the barbarian. Then, you have the fighter who usually has no class abilities granted outside of the combat pillar. To diversify in ability, fighters have to rely on the skill system, which they often have precious few resources to do so. Even with classes like the ranger and paladin their features focus heavily on the combat pillar. There is little choice to interact in the other pillars of the game even at level up and with retraining. Attempts to open things up a bit have been made, such as backgrounds, but still the martial classes remain the tightest in choice of pillar terms of the classes.
Let's get to the discussion already, Payn!!!
Lets examine the martial classes even deeper. I'll set skills aside for now as all classes can use those. Lets look at class abilities. The paladin (whether you see them as holy knights of goodness or just armored dudes with magic) often are granted bonuses against mind effects, ability to detect evil, auras to protect their allies, etc... They are granted abilities that lean into the social pillar of play. The ranger has traditionally been given class abilities that focus on living in nature, tracking, and wild empathy. These all lead to being good in the exploration pillar. Fighters? I am having trouble thinking of a single class feature not focused solely on combat. In past editions, fighters eventually become squires and knights and leaders of people. That idea has almost entirely been abandoned in modern D&D.
All balancing of versatility aside, the glaring problem I can see is the fighter class. Casters have variety in type and choice of features. Skill classes have a mix of class identity and utility choice. Martials are often tied heavily to class features. The fighter is in desperate need of some of everything. Where to start? How about with class features? What can you imagine as being the role a fighter plays in every pillar? Solider or Mercenary backgrounds? Weapon skills to accomplish more than killing? Leader type ability that leads to assistance and bonus for their partners? What is the fighter identity; or what could it be?
A couple of ground rules I wish folks would respect;
This thread is NOT to discuss how to balance fighters with casters mechanically. This thread IS about giving the fighter more space in the exploration and social pillar.
-Cheers
Fighter discussions are all the rage right now. The discussion most on my mind are the pillars of play and the fighter's role. While never exactly hardcoded into the game, pillars have been described as combat, exploration, and social. Some systems have tried to tie mechanics to the pillars (I.E. 4E skill challenges, XE social combat, or PF2 exploration mode) but none have explicitly defined or hardcoded mechanics to systems holistically. My aim is not to do that here in this thread. I am quite comfortable with the ambiguity as both player and GM in the pillars of play. What I do want to talk about are things to do in each pillar and how some classes have greater choice than others. Most importantly, how does the fighter get out of the combat only space? What does a fighter look like in exploration and social pillars of play?
First lets talk about what exploration pillar means. I have heard from many folks they don't really know exactly what to consider exploration. Is it delving dungeons and navigating traps? Is it overland travel and surviving deadly elemental conditions? Is it solving riddles and puzzles? Discovering long lost temples and esoteric knowledge? Tracking animals, monsters, and NPCs? To me the answer is all of that. The skill system since at least 3E, has included a number of skills that assist in these areas. Skills that wont be effective or even useable in combat situations. For example, knowledge skills, disable device/lockpicking, perception, etc... The traditional method is to apply a skill roll to a situation and determine result. If danger is present, immediately or sustained, then saves are used for defense.
Now lets talk about the social pillar. This one tends to make more sense to folks. Working with or against NPCs. Finding information, convincing others, role playing actual personality and interaction. Skills like sense motive, diplomacy, and intimidation have come to be expected in social pillar play. There is also quite a bit of passive methods of social play in feats, backgrounds, traits, etc... Essentially, minor mechanical benefits that are flavored in various ways. Social play tends to move inconsistently between rules and rulings in practice at various tables. This makes social an easy to identify pillar of play, yet a much more ambiguous pillar than exploration and combat. Skills and saves are used for defense often in this pillar of play.
Finally, the combat pillar. The most obvious of pillars. Class, race, feats, skills, means combat receives the most mechanical support. I don't feel its necessary to dive in since its not part of this discussion.
I'll start with casters in the pillar discussion. Casters are easily the most versatile in pillars. Not only do they get access to skills, feats, and backgrounds, but their class feature spells also allows them access to complete utility. You have combat focused spells like magic missile, you have exploration spells like divination, and you have social spells like charm person. Not only can a caster choose tools to help in any given pillar, they can do so every single day. Perhaps that is the essence of a caster class? Magic shapes them in any way they see fit and grant versatility, albeit, in a limited fashion (that becomes less and less so with level..). Casters are the least in need of pillar versatility. In fact, they can be strong or weak at any given time. The most free in mechanical game space of all class types.
Lets move on to skill focused classes like the Rogue and Bard. These classes have a lot of room in skill choice and play to move between pillars. They often sacrifice the ability to be strong or strongest in combat for this versatility. Unlike casters, skill classes make their choices and live with them going forward. Choices only come at level up and possible retraining rules based on system and or table GM allowance. One thing interesting with skill classes, they often have built in class features that give them a boost in pillar play that casters and martials often do not have. Rogues have their sneak attack and skill boosts, Bards their performance based buffs and debuffs etc..
Finally, we have the marital classes. Some are heavily defined by class abilities like the ranger and paladin. Others, a little less so like the barbarian. Then, you have the fighter who usually has no class abilities granted outside of the combat pillar. To diversify in ability, fighters have to rely on the skill system, which they often have precious few resources to do so. Even with classes like the ranger and paladin their features focus heavily on the combat pillar. There is little choice to interact in the other pillars of the game even at level up and with retraining. Attempts to open things up a bit have been made, such as backgrounds, but still the martial classes remain the tightest in choice of pillar terms of the classes.
Let's get to the discussion already, Payn!!!
Lets examine the martial classes even deeper. I'll set skills aside for now as all classes can use those. Lets look at class abilities. The paladin (whether you see them as holy knights of goodness or just armored dudes with magic) often are granted bonuses against mind effects, ability to detect evil, auras to protect their allies, etc... They are granted abilities that lean into the social pillar of play. The ranger has traditionally been given class abilities that focus on living in nature, tracking, and wild empathy. These all lead to being good in the exploration pillar. Fighters? I am having trouble thinking of a single class feature not focused solely on combat. In past editions, fighters eventually become squires and knights and leaders of people. That idea has almost entirely been abandoned in modern D&D.
All balancing of versatility aside, the glaring problem I can see is the fighter class. Casters have variety in type and choice of features. Skill classes have a mix of class identity and utility choice. Martials are often tied heavily to class features. The fighter is in desperate need of some of everything. Where to start? How about with class features? What can you imagine as being the role a fighter plays in every pillar? Solider or Mercenary backgrounds? Weapon skills to accomplish more than killing? Leader type ability that leads to assistance and bonus for their partners? What is the fighter identity; or what could it be?
A couple of ground rules I wish folks would respect;
This thread is NOT to discuss how to balance fighters with casters mechanically. This thread IS about giving the fighter more space in the exploration and social pillar.
-Cheers
