PC starts a town: DM panics...

[roguerouge]

At some point, my campaign's player might* start a community. Now, I seem to recall that there's some problems with 3e's economic model. What do I need to prepare for? Is the problem largely with the craft and profession skills or with the town creation rules? Or is it that it doesn't work for import/export economies and is insensitive to supply and demand? Any help here would be much appreciated.



*(It's a sandbox campaign. So I have to plan for some contingencies.)

 

[Runestar]

The problem is less so with starting/running a town (which is probably more trouble than what it is worth in terms of monetary rewards), and more of the use of conjuration spells, which create lasting items that can then be sold.

Here are some examples.

Summon Monster VII = Djinni (Genie) or 1d3 Bralani Eladrin or 1d4+1 Hound Archons. The Djinni can create 40 gallons of wine for you. He can also create 20 cubic feet of Black Lotus Extract for you, that is permanent. Now, 1 ounce of extract is worth 4,500 gold... so do the math. The Djinni could also create 20 cubic feet of any other expensive vegetable matter you can think of that could sell well or be useful to the party at the time. He can only do the wine and major creation once, upon summoning, but it's still completely worth the 1 daily 7th level spell slot.

Or the party could cast wall of iron, then melt it into iron ingots to sell. Same for other wall spells like wall of salt.

Essentially, there are so many ways of generating an infinite (or rather, endless repeatable) stream of cash in 3e that it isn't even funny.

 

[Rechan]

Is the economy/import/export so crucial you have to have concrete rules to determine them? Why exactly do you need GPD? What baring does how much the local farmer makes have on, well, anything?

Do your players literally need to compute how large the communal grain silo must be based on the amount of pounds produced by the acrage of farmsteads around, before sitting down with the tax collector in order to determine how much lumber, labor and time it would take to construct said silo?

My PCs are currently building a colony in a resource-rich continent, and all I really am concerned with is saying "This is the amount of time x will take you to accomplish" or "No, you can't use shocker lizards to create an electrified armor symbiote, or a blinding spotlight on your shield. But you can use them for generating power."

 

[Rechan]

Or the party could cast wall of iron, then melt it into iron ingots to sell. Same for other wall spells like wall of salt.

Don't forget Wall of Iron + Fabricate.

 

[Hussar]

IMO, 3e's economic model works fine for "adventuring parties". However, as a model for a working community, it leaves a lot to be desired.

I guess the big question is, how Sim do you want to make this? Are you comfortable leaving most of it off camera, or do you want them to get right down and dirty in the accounting?

Me? I'd let them off with an initial influx of cash/resources and just pay them a divendend (say 5%) per year. Give the town a fairly even growth rate (or perhaps boom town rate depending on the situation) and leave off most of the details. Chuck in the odd adventure depending on the town - defense, thieves guild moving in, possibly dealing with other nobles from other areas - that sort of thing.

In other words, make the town part of the setting, rather than the adventure itself.

 

[Engilbrand]

Rechan's on the right track. Why do you have to have a ton of stuff? Are they just going to sit there and turn Dungeons and Dragons into a game of Taxes and Townhalls? (I couldn't think of a better name.)
If they get to the point of making a town, they'll have to decide if they want to keep adventuring or if they want to hang out and run the town. If they want to run the town, have their new characters come from that town. If they still adventure, give them a little bit of money each time they come to the town. Figuring out the fiddly bits of the economy seems like a LOT more work than it's really worth, especially if it isn't even a definite that your players will do this.

 

[Ydars]

I would steal the fairly simple rules from the Companion (BECMI) set if your players insist on running a dominion/town in this way. You might have to put some multipliers in to account for the differences in gp values between 3,5E and Companion but it is well worth it.

Companion rules can be bought as a PDF from Drivethrurpg.com

Or you could use the rules from the Stronghold builders guide and add in the trade rules from DMG II and perhaps the mass combat rules from Heroes of battle (I think; someone can correct me).

This can lead to some fun political games and I have done this a few times. I like the army rules and mass combat stuff (in the Companion set; have never used the 3.5 version yet) and this is generally the only time it is worth bothering with the economy.

 

[Shayuri]

A note on genies...

As I understand it, in 3.5, the duration on any spell cast by a summoned creature expires, regardless of it's normal length, when the summon expires. Permenant is a duration, as opposed to Instantaneous, like Wall of Iron.

My reading is that even "permenant" spells cast by summons end when the summons end. This would include Permenant Illusions cast by summoned pixies, for example.

 

[roguerouge]

The campaign is fairly immersive. It's a one PC campaign, so I tend to try to set some rules up to ensure that there's no impression that my rulings are arbitrary or adversarial. And the PC is a skill monkey extraordinaire... so skill-based adventures have included a ball, a Noises Off style production, a backstage murder mystery, and a poker game or three.

I think that the goal will be to start a community on a new continent scenario... so, yes, it is kind of important to figure out if the community's going to starve, get scurvy, or lack basic goods to trade with any natives they might find.

Watching out for wall of iron, fabricate, and summoning loops. Gotcha.

I'll take a look at the DMGII and see if I can cobble up something from there.

How do the profession and crafting skills hold up? Would they work in a scenario like this one? Which ones would you need for a largely self-sustaining community?

 

[pawsplay]

The craft rules work okay for small ticket items. Once you start getting into things like boats, or trying to equip the town guard officers with masterwork items, things get a little odd. The thing I would keep in mind is that most small communities do not have dedicated, powerful spellcasters working on their economic growth, so the community will be exceptional in the first place. It's safe to assume that repeated castings of wall of iron will quickly depress local costs for iron, which might in turn reduce the cost of iron and steel goods by a percentage, but it probably won't start a contintent-wide economic panic. Barring horrible monster attacks, a PC-founded community in an appropriate locale is essentially guaranteed to succeed. It's an open question, however, whether they will be able to impose the rule of law, feed the poor, and defend their community from predatory monsters or NPCs.

The community will be in many respects a boom town. Look up information on the California Gold Rush. If many settlers are flocking to a town, it might be reasonable to double the cost of many goods and triple costs of rent, with much of the town teetering on starvation unless something can be done to stem the influx of immigrants.