PC starts a town: DM panics...
- Thread starter roguerouge
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Protagonist
Explorer
or posit that the iron in "wall of iron" is an allegory and not made of real metal, thus limiting the possible of using it for these kinds of stuff.
You can do the same with many other spells. Grease surely doesn't conjure plain old grease, does it? Can you sweep up Glitterdust from the floor to use it again?
Yes. It's based on wahoo. Therefore it's completely busted when it comes to governing mundane economic activity. Also, it produces too many chickens...
Here's what I'd do, in order to save myself a lot of work and potential migraines... talk to your players out-of-game and establish some ground rules. Tell them the town sounds like a great idea, but you're willing to run an economic simulation based around the D&D rules, which were never intended to be used that way. Their town's economy will run more-or-less like the real world, at lleast as far as you understand it. They are free to use their fancy powers to gain advantages, but not game-breaking ones, and "game-breaking" will be defined as anything you can't handle. Instead of banning things outright --and going through an extended vetting process-- say 'yes', with the caveat that they'll agree to work with you if (when) problems arise.
Player initiatives like this are terrific, if challenging, stuff. But the ways to make them work aren't found in a knowledge of the rules. They're social contract issues.
Ydars
Explorer
The needs of any self sufficient community are always the same; water, food, shelter, cooking materials, metal and food storage.
With this in mind you would need the professions/crafts mining, woodcutting, hunting, smelting, charcoal burning, metalworking, building, carpentry, stone-masonry, pottery, boatbuilding, fishing, food preservation, farming, animal husbandry and perhaps plant husbandry as well (for finding new food plants in the "new world", threshing, and baking.
All I can think of for now. Just site the new colony near iron or copper, clay (for pottery), wood for building and fires, stone for building (not immediate) water and some south facing slopes for farming.
With this in mind you would need the professions/crafts mining, woodcutting, hunting, smelting, charcoal burning, metalworking, building, carpentry, stone-masonry, pottery, boatbuilding, fishing, food preservation, farming, animal husbandry and perhaps plant husbandry as well (for finding new food plants in the "new world", threshing, and baking.
All I can think of for now. Just site the new colony near iron or copper, clay (for pottery), wood for building and fires, stone for building (not immediate) water and some south facing slopes for farming.
taliesin15
First Post
Location I think is a central issue. I think back to 1st edition DMG/PH talking about higher level PCs building a stronghold/wizard's tower--and clearing the land, attracting followers. Seems like some of the basics are in there. One thing for sure is you want to have clean drinking water and a dependable food source.
One might suggest to the PCs to start with a Village first, then work up to a Town.
At one point in my last campaign, the PCs tried to build a stronghold within an NPCs stronghold. The latter I didn't hit them over the head with, so once they started plans for building a small fortress within the high level Ranger's lands, I had him kind of come over and tell them "hey I like having you guys live here, but I'm trying to keep this community here small and lowkey--and hard for neighboring enemies to find--you did notice how well hidden the entrance is, and how well guarded the borders are?"
Somewhat based on that party's tentative plans, I've created a community elsewhere in my milieu for future campaigns of a village founded by a group of semi-retired adventurers--all level 11. It is one of the most unusual villages on the continent, and has one of every core race and nearly every core class. Located on a road used by trade caravans in an unpopulated area, located near water, and at the nexus of hills, forest and plains. This way there's an Elvish part of the village, then a dwarf/gnome/halfling part.
One might suggest to the PCs to start with a Village first, then work up to a Town.
At one point in my last campaign, the PCs tried to build a stronghold within an NPCs stronghold. The latter I didn't hit them over the head with, so once they started plans for building a small fortress within the high level Ranger's lands, I had him kind of come over and tell them "hey I like having you guys live here, but I'm trying to keep this community here small and lowkey--and hard for neighboring enemies to find--you did notice how well hidden the entrance is, and how well guarded the borders are?"
Somewhat based on that party's tentative plans, I've created a community elsewhere in my milieu for future campaigns of a village founded by a group of semi-retired adventurers--all level 11. It is one of the most unusual villages on the continent, and has one of every core race and nearly every core class. Located on a road used by trade caravans in an unpopulated area, located near water, and at the nexus of hills, forest and plains. This way there's an Elvish part of the village, then a dwarf/gnome/halfling part.
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Storm Raven
First Post
Does this really change anything though other than giving the players a bunch of new responsibilities you can exploit for adventure hooks? The problems with the interaction of D&D spells with D&D economics exist no matter whether the PCs are running a small community or not - they could exploit the Wall of Iron issue just as easily either way.
But PCs taking on responsibilties? That's a godsend for any DM. Beset them with problems related to developing, running, and protecting the town.
As I (kinda) said above, just assume that all the obvious magical-economical exploits are already being used by other NPCs and a normal part of the economy.
frankthedm
First Post
Use this as a reason to import the 4E "mundane stuff sells for 1/5th, if at all" rule.
I think PCs running towns/manors/strongholds works fine, so long as you reach an understanding.
For the manor and stronghold that I run, we have an agreement: I won't try to manipulate things with cheese (i.e. wall of iron + fabricate), and he is mostly amenable to any ideas that I have. I might still use fabricate to make the guards' armor and weapons, but I'll spend the 1/3 cost and I'll invest the points into Craft.
I might make castle walls out of Wall of Stone, but I've also got tons of points into knowledge: engineering, and I spend the several months of in-game time to do it.
I asked my DM if it would be a problem if I bought a Pantry of Endless Food (from the Stronghold Builder's Guide). He looked it over, and decided that 15,000gp was a fair price to pay for not having to deal with the tedium of making sure we have enough food for the guards. However, I don't try to cheese my way into saying that now we can grow all the food we want on the land to sell for profit. Thus everyone's happy.
I think so long as your players don't try to exploit things, and are willing to have a lot of leeway into the whole economic system, things will work out fine.
For the manor and stronghold that I run, we have an agreement: I won't try to manipulate things with cheese (i.e. wall of iron + fabricate), and he is mostly amenable to any ideas that I have. I might still use fabricate to make the guards' armor and weapons, but I'll spend the 1/3 cost and I'll invest the points into Craft.
I might make castle walls out of Wall of Stone, but I've also got tons of points into knowledge: engineering, and I spend the several months of in-game time to do it.
I asked my DM if it would be a problem if I bought a Pantry of Endless Food (from the Stronghold Builder's Guide). He looked it over, and decided that 15,000gp was a fair price to pay for not having to deal with the tedium of making sure we have enough food for the guards. However, I don't try to cheese my way into saying that now we can grow all the food we want on the land to sell for profit. Thus everyone's happy.
I think so long as your players don't try to exploit things, and are willing to have a lot of leeway into the whole economic system, things will work out fine.
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