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PCgen to start charging for Data?!


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chilibean

First Post
Why is it bad to charge a fair and reasonable price for the rights to use intellectual property? What's with the instant reflex to view everything on the web as something that should be (as if by divine decree) completely and totally free? I'm not sure what the mental hangup is preventing people from feeling comfortable with purchasing the rights to use a datafile. A great many people who never would shoplift an actual physical item from a store seem to have no problem logging on to Kazaa and stealing it there. Why can't people understand that intellectual property is still property. I just don't understand. :( Perhaps the problem is just me not understanding, but I just don't understand the protest against a publisher charging for what they are publishing.
 

Brown Jenkin

First Post
As long as they are charging for thier own work. This means that anything they are charging for has to be re-entered by them otherwise they are selling other peoples work (Those who entered the sources for free as part of a free project)Unfortunately for us this means many more months continueing to use use the old files until they re-enter all the data.

I do have a problem with them charging for yearly updates. The subscription model that Microsoft is trying to perpetrate on all of us is immoral and CMP who support open-source should know better than to try to foist it on us as well.
 

Hardhead

Explorer
I was pretty surprised by this announcement too. Still, I don't suppose the PCGen people were wanting to do all that work on E-tools for free. *shrug*

As long as it's not too much, I won't complain. They said $1-5, but I don't think I'd be willing to pay $5 just to use a product in PCGen/E-tools. It's just not worth that much to me. More like $1-3, I think.


- Z a c h
 
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chilibean said:
Why is it bad to charge a fair and reasonable price for the rights to use intellectual property? What's with the instant reflex to view everything on the web as something that should be (as if by divine decree) completely and totally free? I'm not sure what the mental hangup is preventing people from feeling comfortable with purchasing the rights to use a datafile. A great many people who never would shoplift an actual physical item from a store seem to have no problem logging on to Kazaa and stealing it there. Why can't people understand that intellectual property is still property. I just don't understand. :( Perhaps the problem is just me not understanding, but I just don't understand the protest against a publisher charging for what they are publishing.

I take a great deal of offense by your implication that since I am dissatisfied by PCgen's move from a free player utility to a 'pay for data' program, that I am a thief.

Next time, think before you blindly insult someone. And please, keep your reflexive sputterings from the moral high ground where they belong... in your head.

-F
 

Hardhead

Explorer
Gah! I just read more on the annoucement. $1-5 for ONE YEAR? Hell no. If I buy a WotC book, I get to use it forever. I'm certainly not going to actually pay a subscription to use it in PCGen or E-tools. Let's say I have a dozen that aren't SRD. We'll use $3 as a price tag. That's $36 per year? Nonono. I could well end up paying CMP more for the prodcuts than I did WotC, if I "subscribe" for five years. Plus, if only one person in the group buys a book, everyone can use it.

And If everyone in my group wants to use PCGen, it costs us all that amount (unless we share the files, in which case we'd be stealing). So between the seven of us, we'd be paying more to use the files in PCGen than the actual paper books we originally bought? And more every year afterwards?


- Z a c h
 
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Ranger REG

Explorer
Somehow, that is not surprising, considering they are now a legitimate business with a company name, as opposed to a bunch of programmers with no name for the group making a freeware program part-time.

Then again, who wouldn't want to own their own business and generate their own income?

As for the data sets, they are right. If the material from the copyrighted books have not been included in the SRD, it still fall under the control of the copyright owner, and have every right to decide what to do with them, according to the copyright law. If Wizards want royalty from those copyrighted material, they can demand it.

Personally, $5 sounds reasonable. I am concerned about ordering online. You see, I don't have a plastic. So, is there any alternative payment options?
 

Hardhead

Explorer
This is something I posted on the CMP boards. The quoted text is from a thread over there, but I think it pretty well sums up my feelings, and I don't feel like writing a whole nother post over here to say the same thing.


Hardhead said:
So everyone in your gaming group uses PCGen while you game? usually only the GM will need the files because they will be the one who is tracking the groups characters. I doubt that everyone in your gaming group needs all the files...and there is nothing forcing them to buy a copy each.

I can't speak for the original poster, but with my group, my players create and level up their characters at home, and email me the pcg file. If they don't have a copy of the PCGen files (and they won't, they're not all going to pay for them) then it's also less useful to me, because I no longer have a handy electronic version of their characters.


Plus, the same logic goes for books...

not everyone in a gaming group NEEDS to own the PHb, yet usually everyone in a gaming group will own their own copy of said PHb. It is just as easy for the GM to own a PHb which the group shares. Does this mean WotC is raping you for money because everyone in the group wants their own copy of the PHb and pays the $30 for it, thus paying WotC about $180 for the same book? No, it is the player's desire to own their own copy of a product. I don't see that as exploitation, just supply and demand.

Except, that's ONLY true for the PHB, because it's used constantly at the gaming table. For the splatbooks, for instance, we only own one copy of each that everyone uses because it sees very little table use. We can pay $20 between the seven of us for us all to use it. But at $3, it'd be $21 for the group to use a product we already own in PCGen. Ugh.

You see, like PCGen, you only need a splatbook when leveling up your character and it's really easy to share for that purpose. Occasionally, you may need to look up exactly what a feat does in the middle of a game, but it's rare enough that multiple people don't ever need the splatbook. And PCGen can't even preform that last function, so it's less valuable. And yes, you charge less, but you charge per person, not per group. So, as a group, $20 for a splatbook is no problem. $21 to use that splatbook in PCGen is.

And that's before we even get into the fact that it's only guaranteed to work for one year. In my experiecne, PCGen breaks LST syntax about once every six months or so, so that "only one year" pricetag is a big deal. A very big deal. Over the corse of five years, myself alone could end up paying more to use a book in PCGen than to own the actual paper book! That's not even getting into what the entire group would pay!

To be blunt, I find that absolutely and completly unacceptable. I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm telling you flat-out that I will not pay anything that resembles a "subscription" service for these LST files. Maybe others will, and it won't be a big deal for you, but I won't.

If I buy a Sword and Fist, I get to use it forever, no additonal charges. If WotC erratas it two months later, or two years later, I can still download the errata from WotC's website for free. I expect the same from my data files that I purchased. It's not hard to do. You have a LST file converter in PCGen right now. All you have to do is keep it up to date.

Plenty of products will continue to come out that will put money in your coffers, and I have exactly zero problems with paying you for your work. I realize PCGen is a big effort, I appreciate your work, which until now has been purely volunteer. I don't have any problem with paying.

But I won't continue to pay year after year to use the same stuff.


- Z a c h
 

gariig

First Post
I believe Mynex posted that they are using Paypal now(which all you need is a bank account) for payment and are looking into other methods. My only concern is this:

The FRCS (which I play in) dataset comes out tomorrow, I gladly purchase it and have lots of domains, feats, PrCs, etc and life is good. A year and a half down the road money is hard for CMP, so what do you do..write some changes so that LSTs can't be read except by purchasing the newer ones and the changes were done in 20 minutes of perl script. I know CMP isn't like this, but as a consumer I realize it can be. Also, PCGen has about a 6 month LST cycle it seems...so to me, I'm going to wait about 6 months to purchase my LST so I can outlive the subscription date. Also, what stops CMP from tagging the files with a date and having the LST files stop working after the 1 year(this could be accomplished with the LST engine over haul technique).

I'm sorry to say this about Mynex and others, they do seem to be good people. However, in my experience, money makes people do strange things. I worry that they might get money grubbing and start to do some underhanded tactics, a la Microsoft.

In short, the buying of IP at 3-5 a book is fine. Hell, I'm all for it!! However, the 3-5 a year subscription fee is totally bogus. I as a consumer don't like to have to be forced to do anything unless I want. Also, I see the subscription thing as a one sided issue. After my initial acquisition of the LST file, paying 3-5 dollars in 365 days nets me nothing. This isn't like Dragon Magazine where resubscribing gets me 12 new shiney books, it's like getting nothing for 3-5 dollars. Also, it's going to come to a point where you could be paying $100+ in subscription fees to use PCGen with WoTC material. Great idea, really bad implementation of it.
 

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