PCs questioning DMs

[DerianCypher]

A recurring situation has become the norm for my current group that I DM, and I was wondering if this was a common occurance. First off a little history: I DM a group of 3 people who are all pretty good friends, and who all have DMed at one point.

To make sure that I present difficult challenges and new things I've bought certain books that I have declared to be closed to everyone but myself. (Ie. Dieties and Demigods, MM2, etc.)

Now, to the situation: Whenever the PCs get into a jam and get annoyed they get mad and show it. On many occasion my PCs have said, "(S)He can't do that!" to what I respond "Yes (S)He can." and the PCs saying something along the lines of "by the rules as we know them he can't."

I know this is a big trust issue thing, but I know I'm doing something right because they've said on more than one occasion that the game I'm running is great.

Just to further illustrate I'll give an example of a situation in which something like this came up. The PCs were sent to fight Lolth (as you can already tell, this is very epic campaign). I've altered the pantheons, and basically the PCs had to go to Lolth's mini-plane to get a really uber gem. Well, the battle chamber was a 50' by 50' chamber with 4 pillars. Her basic tactic was to fire off a few spells (custom Deity ability) and then teleport to one side of the chamber (it was dark) and would hide.

The PCs got SO frustrated because after like 12 rounds they hadn't even hit her. The problem, as I saw it, was that the party wasn't working together so they were eating a lot of damage and dealing none. The PCs constantly were shooting angry looks at me. Once they finally got ahold of her (grapple) her contingency-teleport w/o error went off and she poofed out of the fighters grasp. The player playing the fighter said, "How'd she get out?!" and I told him. He gave me a really annoyed look and said, "That's a bit far fetched!"

Far-fetched? A wizards worst nightmare is getting grappled!

*takes a breath* Alright, the battle finally ended (4 hours later).

Does this stuff happen often in other people's campaign? Maybe I'm just blowing this out of proportion. I know I needed to vent

Oh well, what do you all think?
DC

 

[fba827]

My groups have not been in that sort of situation (where some rule base is unknown to the players deliberatly) so I can not regale you with my own similar stories. However, I can say I kind of liked your annecdote -- why? It forces players to start thinking outside the rules as they know it...

when we play now, everyone stares at the battlemap wondering how to move about without getting AoOs, etc... with your annecodote, they can no longer sit and analysize what they know they can get away with in the rules but rather have to start trying to understand the powers of their foe and learning to deal with it that way!

I like it.

If they are complaining (and they aren't actually _mad_; you did say they state that they like the game) I'd say the complaints are just out of surprised-frustration. That knee jerk response you want to give when something doesn't go exactly as you hoped ...

As long as you are playing fair (you aren't just making things up totally and are in fact using some predefined basis for your rules/rulings, then I say no problem with how it is going.

If the questions/complaints continue, just be prepared to state that based on the special abilities of this creature/enemy, that does happen to work for special / specific reasons. It sounds hollow, but it could provide enough reasoning to give you some credibility.


anyway, just my two cents.

 

[hong]

Just to further illustrate I'll give an example of a situation in which something like this came up. The PCs were sent to fight Lolth (as you can already tell, this is very epic campaign). I've altered the pantheons, and basically the PCs had to go to Lolth's mini-plane to get a really uber gem. Well, the battle chamber was a 50' by 50' chamber with 4 pillars. Her basic tactic was to fire off a few spells (custom Deity ability) and then teleport to one side of the chamber (it was dark) and would hide.

The PCs got SO frustrated because after like 12 rounds they hadn't even hit her. The problem, as I saw it, was that the party wasn't working together so they were eating a lot of damage and dealing none. The PCs constantly were shooting angry looks at me. Once they finally got ahold of her (grapple) her contingency-teleport w/o error went off and she poofed out of the fighters grasp. The player playing the fighter said, "How'd she get out?!" and I told him. He gave me a really annoyed look and said, "That's a bit far fetched!"

Far-fetched? A wizards worst nightmare is getting grappled!

*takes a breath* Alright, the battle finally ended (4 hours later).

Does this stuff happen often in other people's campaign? Maybe I'm just blowing this out of proportion. I know I needed to vent

Your players may just not be familiar with what ultra-high-level characters are capable of. It's quite amazing what a few buff spells, magic items and special abilities can do. Did you actually play up to this level, or did you make up high-level PCs and jump right in?

 

[Kichwas]

I have to wonder if the closing off of certain books from the players could be at the root of your problem.

 

[DerianCypher]

Oh they are quite aware of what can be done with epic powers. As for when we started, we started at level 16 and they are now currently level 38ish.

 

[bret]

I can't tell if there is a problem here or not, would really need to hear more details and the player's side of things.

What I would consider red flags indicating a problem are:

• NPCs with powers that PCs could never get.
• Players not knowing things that a character growing up in that environment would.
• The NPCs always outsmarting the characters.
• The NPCs never making mistakes and always cooperating closely in battle. Things like someone just happening to step out of the way just before a caster on their side fires off a spell.

I have no way of knowing if any of these things are happening. Talk to your players. If the characters would be able to figure it out, tell them how some of the stuff could be done. It is probably best to approach this as a theory: Your character thinks that maybe it worked like this or that.

It can be frustrating to have hidden rules if it is something that you could have taken advantage of if only you had known. It is appropriate at other times though, because the characters would have no way of knowing how it should work.

 

[Agamon]

Heh, if I told my players certain books were "off limits", I know a couple of them would read said books backwards and forwards, especially since one of them buys them all. Not saying anything, they don't seem to bother

 

[cptg1481]

Heh, if I told my players certain books were "off limits", I know a couple of them would read said books backwards and forwards, especially since one of them buys them all. Not saying anything, they don't seem to bother

I'm with you here....if I were the player and not GM I'd head right to my local game store and at least look at said no-no's. Probablly I'd buy them...I have some morals, however, and would not buy or look if they were modules or adventures. Rules and stuff are what's the thing I'm looking for, oh come one even in legaleaze it's fairly obvious...OPEN GAME LICENCE.

I like my D&D fair and square...as a GM I make all my rolls in full view and hope that my players know the rules at least as good as me if not better so we can all have a fair time. They check me I check them it's...um, fun. I don't fear what my players know.

I especially agree with Bret in principle, I recently quit a group where in the NPC"s (especially those we we not to killl) came decked out with the finest and most expensive gear. The 10th level hoody who of the guard sportin the +3 plate of flying (with wings) and we a party of 12th level can't seem to rub a couple of coppers together between us. Makes me wonder if theres sumpthin fishy in Denmark....Humpf....I'm done,

Remember its not what you know its how you use it that maters, you can't stop someone from purchacing something in america......if they have the coppers that is.

 

[DerianCypher]

I especially agree with Bret in principle, I recently quit a group where in the NPC"s (especially those we we not to killl) came decked out with the finest and most expensive gear. The 10th level hoody who of the guard sportin the +3 plate of flying (with wings) and we a party of 12th level can't seem to rub a couple of coppers together between us. Makes me wonder if theres sumpthin fishy in Denmark....Humpf....I'm done,

The thing is, my players are on a decently level playing field when it comes to the mobs. The things are close to them are books that PCs shouldn't be reading anyway. For example, are PCs supposed to be reading the monsters stats etc? Especially ones you plan on using against them?

I also closed Dieties and Demigods b/c.. well... it's basically another monster book.

As for the equipment matter, my PCs are WELL above their GP value for their level. Each one of them has atleast 1 item better than any artifact in any book (custom items tailored to each PC). Not onyl that, but I'm pretty sure each PC has atleast 200,000gp in cold hard cash.

 

[Painfully]

What's a fighter doing questioning the rules of magic?! XP penalty baby!

After that, I'd ask them when's the last time they fought a lolth and how would they know any different? Unless they've done some deep research (and even that should not reveal the combat tactics) about lolth, I'd say they have NO room to question the DM.