PCs questioning DMs

[Chacal]

For instance, if I wanted to use Lolth in a game where all the players are familiar with the material connected with Lolth, they have every right to expect it to be the Lolth they know. Why else use it?

I think Lolth, or every divinity or monster, represents much more than its game statistics.
IMC I generally choose monsters and gods according to the feeling I want for an adventure, then I select the ones with apropriate CRs.
The PCs usually have limited information about some rare monsters and especially gods. They might know some of their powers, but can only interpret how they work by comparing with powers they know.
I make sure that my players are aware that monsters and gods might have different abilities than the ones written in the books, but that their abilities are supposed to be consistent with the campaign and part of their PCs past knowledge (no beasts of everchanging powers IMC, just some surprises from time to time).
Nevertheless, I try to be consistent with other campaigns that use the same monsters and god, to avoid confusion (like " haven't told you so ? IMC the ogres have troll stats" ).

In short, if the players had interacted (via their PCs I hope ) with Lolth already in some campaign, it's better to be consistent. If they hadn't (or if it was not on his home plane, or with a quite different game system) I'd say it's perfectly fair to give it the stats you want.


Chacal
P.S : did I mention consistence ?

 

[Enceladus]

I had the same problem you're having on many levels Derian. I came to the conclusion that it was the "culture" of the group of players that I had misfortune of getting sucked into, something I should have taken into account before I DM'd them. Ah well, live and learn I guess. My solution (this may not be yours, my tolerance threshold is considerably low) was to get rid of every single frigging one of the powergaming, rules monkeys and start a new group.

My new group rocks!

Any time there is a problem they have enough self control to wait until after game time to confront me about it and then its like "Oh." I now have their trust because they've come to realize that I know what I'm doing. I tell ya, its the group that makes all the difference.

 

[jasper]

hello Ray um Bret you are fighting a GOD here.
First gee Dm used Thor stats for Spider baby not much of problem if the players knew some stat changes were being made.
Second just because the dm ran tactics better than the group this is dm fault. Gee no wonder my group loves it when Rami shows up to play to give the group a clue. They don't always follow it but when they do. Monsters go down the hole quickly.
And he does using only character knowledge and kicking the cowards into combat.
Dm has stated the players have more than their fair share of stuff.
So bad planning bad tactics hard night.
Now to those so and so yell. That stinking Jasper Dm can't tell me what I can read and buy. I'm going to buy all the splat books.
Go ahead but when Bucky the Wonder states that prestise class of left hand scottish engineers can't do according to the rules of splat macgiver. It is time for the blue bolt from heaven striking wonder twit and removing the pc from the campaign forever.

I sat in a Chill game once. The original game master was playing.
The new game master was running a new module. The player gm got pissed because according to a certain roll he should had succeed. He quoted the rules, the turn to the pages in rules etc (he was being an bad player) even after the GM said yes according to the rules you know but I know different. the player gm tore up his sheet and storm out.
We found out later the new monster had some new ablilities which invalidated the player gm rolls.

just because 6 players which have 5 dms sit down at the table does not mean Bucky the Wonder, Raistian the twinkle mage, Chucky the Cleric, and Light fingers lefty have read the dmg, mm, and any other splat book.

 

[dreaded_beast]

Actualy, I play under a DM that has very much proven to me that a DM is not always right. The DM always has final say... But that's not the same thing as always being right.

amen to that!

in regards to the thread, i am unable to determine if your players (excluding the one that posted) are just the "playful" mad that players get during intense battles or actually MAD at you personally.

i would take it as a very big warning sign if your player's are mad at you personally or even a bit more mad than the norm. i have no idea what your group dynamic is or the personality of you or your players, but in my experience, this could be a sign of previous issues that have yet to be resolved. usually, the players and/or dm slowly let little gripes about the game and/or individual slowly build without actually confronting said individual until a point comes around where very strained words are exchanged.

communication is key.

i would site my current group for example (mainly a bad one), but i will wait and see what else develops on this thread.

 

[cptg1481]

Clarification

The thing is, my players are on a decently level playing field when it comes to the mobs. The things are close to them are books that PCs shouldn't be reading anyway. For example, are PCs supposed to be reading the monsters stats etc? Especially ones you plan on using against them?

I also closed Dieties and Demigods b/c.. well... it's basically another monster book.

As for the equipment matter, my PCs are WELL above their GP value for their level. Each one of them has atleast 1 item better than any artifact in any book (custom items tailored to each PC). Not onyl that, but I'm pretty sure each PC has atleast 200,000gp in cold hard cash.

I have no frame of reference for your game and it's character's and in my post I did not intend for you to feel that your game was unfair is that regard. What the character's have ro not was not my point....I was just relating to Bret's red flags about a game being unfair.

The issue I have is with the forbadence of purchasing and reading certain books. My thoughts are....

1.) RPG's are my hobby, I buy what I want when I want and will read and re-read anything I buy at my leasure. This is my absolute right.....no DM will forbid me from buying or reading anything. My wife can't stop me certainly, a GM won't.

2.) Players reading and having access to rule books is fundemental to the game. The beter they know the mechanics the better and fluid thier charcter's actions will be in the game. Knowing the stats of certain monster or diety is not cheating, that information is quite above board and all players who desire to have access to it should. Now what tactics you are going to use are another thing entirely...that should be a supprise.

3.) You site trust as a fundemental issue between players and DM. Frankly, the trust that you think that players should have in you must be earned - just like in real life. Forbidding them to read or buy certain things becasue you don't want them to meta-game is an inherant lack of trust on your part. You are making the assuption that they will somehow cheat and use player knowledge to thier advantge when the "character" would not reasonably know the same facts. I'd say that if you want them to trust you you have to trust them.

I think it was Patton who said.. (paraphasig)

Don't tell soldiers how to do something tell them what to do and let them supprise you with thier ingenuity.

Well its a good idea anyway, but not really aplicable here....consider it a freebe.

What I mean is that trust is given and earned never assumed.

Finally, after 17 years in the army, most of it with a security clearance I can tell you that be it personal, political (organization to organization or nation to nation), or a leader to subordinate relationship, trusting relationships are never built by keeping secrets from one another.

Trust them and they'll trust you....

Heck half the time my players remind me of abilities that enemies have if I forget to use one. Hey don't that thing have combat reflexes they say (fighting the hydra)....ah yes thanks, thats 10 AoO for you as you go through its reach.......

 

[Azlan]

Whenever the PCs get into a jam and get annoyed they get mad and show it. On many occasion my PCs have said, "(S)He can't do that!" to what I respond "Yes (S)He can." and the PCs saying something along the lines of "by the rules as we know them he can't."

The player characters say things like that... ?! That seems totally out-of-character to me.



Seriously, though, this is a matter of trust and respect, more than anything else. There are many, many times throughout a campaign that characters -- and the players, themselves -- are going to come across situations that they're unfamiliar with or they're unknowing of what all is going on behind the scenes. If a player doesn't trust your knowledge or respect your judgment as a DM, then that player will probably question whether or not you are playing fair and by the rules.

 

[barsoomcore]

I am the human DM.

Am I a bad person because this makes me giggle?

 

[Azlan]

Re: Clarification

What I mean is that trust is given and earned never assumed.

If you're going to be a player, you must trust in (or at least consent to) the DM's knowledge of the rules and his fair judgment. If you cannot do this, then you have no business being in that person's campaign.

Does a particular DM deserve your trust? Well, that's for you to decide, over the course of several game sessions. If after several game sessions you decide that, yes, this DM has earned -- and thus deserves -- your trust, then you stay in the campaign. If you decide that he has not earned your trust, and thus does not deserve it, then you drop out.

BTW: A DM has a right to inquire information from a player's character sheet, but a player does not have the right to inquire information from a DM's notes, behind his screen. (This is especially true while in-game.) That's simply not the way the DM/player relationship works.

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Re: PCs questioning DMs

If a player doesn't trust your knowledge or respect your judgment as a DM, then that player will probably question whether or not you are playing fair and by the rules.

Right. And this has two sides to it:

Players, trust your DMs. Just because you don't understand how something works doesn't mean the DM is cheating or incompetent. Being distrustful breaks the mood of the game and makes it harder for everyone to enjoy themselves. Obviously you have to say something if the DM is making "illegal" choices that are ruining your fun, but if you can just relax and trust them, you'll probably find you have more fun in the first place.

DMs, earn your players' trust. Learn the rules, study your NPCs and their special abilities, and work hard to give your players thrilling challenges and memorable gaming nights. When players do question your calls, make sure you defuse their concerns without getting defensive or autocratic -- it does take two to both tango and fight.

Also, consider this, all DMs -- if your players are questioning your rules calls, if they're thinking about the abilities of your NPCs, then that means they aren't as engrossed in the story as they might be. Shouldn't they be so caught up in everything that they respond to new abilities with in-character horror and fear? Isn't it YOUR FAULT that they're more interested in the rules than the story?

The easiest solution to all of this is: be a better DM. Keep your players so enthralled, so on the edge of their seats that it never even occurs to them how the rules work.

I know it's hard. But one of the reasons I love DMing is because it's hard. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

 

[Azlan]

Re: Re: Re: PCs questioning DMs

Also, consider this, all DMs -- if your players are questioning your rules calls, if they're thinking about the abilities of your NPCs, then that means they aren't as engrossed in the story as they might be. Shouldn't they be so caught up in everything that they respond to new abilities with in-character horror and fear? Isn't it YOUR FAULT that they're more interested in the rules than the story?

It's not necessarily the DM's fault. In fact, in most cases, it isn't the DM's; it's far more common to be the fault of argumentative and/or self-centered players.

I know it's hard. But one of the reasons I love DMing is because it's hard. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

I don't think DM'ing is all that hard. But it does require a lot of work and responsibility (as well as a certain level of creativity, ingenuity, and spontaneity). And oftentimes, it can be thankless and frustrating. Throughout my 20 years of roleplaying gaming, I've seen lots of DMs hang it up and quit playing RPGs altogether, due to frustration and a feeling of hopelessness. ("It's just not worth it," they say.)

Myself, as a DM, I sometimes feel stressed out after a game that involved argumentative players and problematic situations.