PCs questioning DMs

[Tsyr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: PCs questioning DMs

It's not necessarily the DM's fault. In fact, in most cases, it isn't the DM's; it's far more common to be the fault of argumentative and/or self-centered players.

Neh, I think barsoomcore has the right of it.

If your players are questioning things, it means they aren't having fun. That's pretty much a no-brainer. Players don't generaly rock the boat when they are having fun. When they start questioning things, it behoove the wise GM to stop and look at the situation from the player's side of the screen...

Why are they so upset?
Why does it bother them that XXXX is happening?
Would this be fun if you were playing as a player?

Things like that... In the case of the Lolth bit, it seems less that they were actualy upset over the DM "screwing them" or anything, but more that they were just not having fun with the encounter. And that's a legit complaint... no matter how 'valid' a tactic might be, logicly or by the rules, if it's not fun, it's Not Good (TM). It's a game. It should be fun. If it's not, something is wrong. End of story.

 

[cptg1481]

Re: Re: Re: Re: PCs questioning DMs

It's not necessarily the DM's fault. In fact, in most cases, it isn't the DM's; it's far more common to be the fault of argumentative and/or self-centered players.

I'm with you here there are just some folks out there who love to argue. I think they'd argue if they were winning most of them.

Also, I think there is a little breaking in period in a new game. I love my group but when we started I think they took my "hey, I make mistakes feel free to let me know if I'm wrong speach" a little too literally....combat quickly degenerated into a series of unending rules consultations.

However, I stoically accepted this for a while and after it became apparent that while what I was doing was indeed new or unusual it was always well within the rules.

The diference was that I never said, well, I'm the GM and the rule is in a book that only I can read...I showed them.

Perhaps in a perfect world like someone opined above and players would all immediately accept the absolute authority of the GM but if not a few strategic indulgences on the part of the GM will soon quell any and all hey...you can't do thats.

Now, im my game instead I get....whoa man, that's a neat (insert attack, ability monster etc.) we never saw that one comming what book is that from....and I say this one (show book) and they say cool can I look....sure I say....and I trust they'll play their characters honestly.


Now, I think that they mostly accept what I say at face value.

Note that while I used the word rule in this example the words, skill, feat, abilty, monster (and attendant stats), item or other things could have been used in the same way to make my point.

 

[jasper]

Knowing the stats of certain monster or deity is not cheating, that information is quite above board and all players who desire to have access to it should.
No not cheating after all Bucky the wonder paladin hero of plain states should automatically the stats of sea elves and what is speed of ship laden squid. Show me a player who does not yawn when he first encounters a rust monster at tenth level and You have a super roleplayer.

 

[dreaded_beast]

It's not necessarily the DM's fault. In fact, in most cases, it isn't the DM's; it's far more common to be the fault of argumentative and/or self-centered players.

don't make it seem as if only the players can be argumentative and/or self-centered. in many cases, the dm can also be this way.

especially when the dm has very little or no respect for their players knowledge in regards to the rules of the game. this type of dm is more than happy to point out how the player is wrong in their interpretation of the rules but takes offense when the player does the same for the dm.

for example, a dm i've had goes out of their way to explain a simple rule if a player makes a mistake in regards to that rule, more often than not in a condescending or patronizing manor as if the player were less intellegent than the dm. and the dm spends more time than necessary with these explanations, detracting from the game. when the player attempts to explain to the dm that they understand the rules, in order to speed up the game, the dm gets irritated at the fact that the player would cut them off in their explanation of the rules.

Myself, as a DM, I sometimes feel stressed out after a game that involved argumentative players and problematic situations.

i am not saying that you are like my example above.

myself, i sometimes feel stressed out after a game that involves an argumentative dm that does not respect a player's intellegence or their knowledge of the rules.

 

[DerianCypher]

Alright.. I have a lot to respond to here so excuse me if I don't quote.

First off, players being allowed to know about monsters etc. The thing is, I have players who will meta-strategize using the powers of the monster during the battle. It's no fun for me (and yes, the DM is supposed to have fun too) if they just tear through an encounter because they are strategizing ooc!

Secondly, it's my fault because my group isn't enthralled. Well, I put 2 hours of prep. time into every hour of play time. I write out pretty eloquent ( I think ) descriptions of what's going on. I prepare encounters they'll have with NPCs etc. Whenever I begin a description, an ooc comment that disrupts everything. Instead of communicating with NPCs IC they choose to do everything briskly and "get to the hack n slash." When we get to combat, they get mad/annoyed/frustrated because they don't just rip through the encounter.

How the hell does one combat that!? I spend a lot of time preparing things and most of the time my dramatic moments are just ruined and the mood destroyed.

Maybe I'm a terrible DM. I don't know. All I know is that I put in a ton of work to have my players get mad/frustrated/annoyed when things don't go their way.

 

[Mark]

First off, players being allowed to know about monsters etc. The thing is, I have players who will meta-strategize using the powers of the monster during the battle...

--------

Whenever I begin a description, an ooc comment that disrupts everything. Instead of communicating with NPCs IC they choose to do everything briskly and "get to the hack n slash." When we get to combat, they get mad/annoyed/frustrated because they don't just rip through the encounter.

How the hell does one combat that!? I spend a lot of time preparing things and most of the time my dramatic moments are just ruined and the mood destroyed.

Maybe I'm a terrible DM. I don't know. All I know is that I put in a ton of work to have my players get mad/frustrated/annoyed when things don't go their way.

I'm telling you, man. Rename everything. If they do not know what they are facing from a mete-game perspective, and their only way to game knowledge is through IC interaction, they have no one to blame but themselves if they are constantly thwarted by creatures because they lack knowledge. They fall back on meta-gaming because it seems to them to be their largest pool of potential help and knowledge. Eliminate that pool and they won't go to it first.

 

[Corinth]

One of the main rules of D&D is this:

The DM is always right.

For the good of the game--and the hobby--this attitude must die.

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Re: Re: Re: PCs questioning DMs

It's not necessarily the DM's fault.

Well, no, of course not. Or rather, yes it is. Or maybe both, depending on how you like to think about these things.

My experience is that when problems appear, the most useful approach is to seek solutions. Solutions don't depend on whose fault it is. Demanding that people take the blame for a problem doesn't solve the problem. Even pointing out that a problem is somebody's fault doesn't solve the problem.

The best way to find solutions is to assume responsibility for the problem. Instead of asking, "Whose fault is this?" ask, "What can I do to solve this problem?" The answer to that question is never "Nothing."

That's what I mean by saying it's the DM's fault. It's everybody's fault, really, but since I'm a DM and I'm talking to a DM, I say, "It's the DM's fault." The idea being that if you take responsibility for the problem you will be better able to solve it.

I don't think DM'ing is all that hard.

Then one of us does it very differently than the other.

But it does require a lot of work and responsibility (as well as a certain level of creativity, ingenuity, and spontaneity). And oftentimes, it can be thankless and frustrating.

Okay, what you just described there? That fits my definition of "Hard." You don't have to agree with my definition, that's cool, but clearly we both have the same opinion on the amount of work involved in being a good DM. My point being one shouldn't expect to be 100% successful at all aspects of the role at all times. We all screw up, we all have bad nights or players we don't know how to deal with.

Maybe it's easy for you. Clearly it's not for DerianCypher, and I just wanted to let him/her know that he/she's not alone in finding it difficult.

 

[barsoomcore]

Secondly, it's my fault because my group isn't enthralled. Well, I put 2 hours of prep. time into every hour of play time.
...
Whenever I begin a description, an ooc comment that disrupts everything.

Maybe there's something wrong with your descriptions. Maybe (forgive me for being completely blunt but I just want to help) your descriptions are terrible. I don't know since of course I've never read one, but let's consider the possibility, okay? Maybe you're a terrible writer.

Maybe you're a great writer but a terrible speaker and whenever you start talking your players can't take the sound of your voice.

I'm just saying there's an unlimited number of possible problems here. The good news is that there's an equally unlimited number of possible solutions.

Write shorter descriptions. One sentence. Four words. Use sign language. Write up handouts and give them to your players. Use a whiteboard. There's all sorts of possibilities.

But, really, here's the big one:

Instead of reading out descriptions, simply ACT as the character. Speak in their voice, perform their actions. If I were to give you one piece of advice it would be this one. PLAY the character.

Your players will respond. They won't have any choice. You may feel awfully uncomfortable the first time you do this. Your players may look a little weirdly at you. But if they're worth anything, they'll respond. You have my personal guarantee on that.

Which is worth absolutely nothing, of course, but it was nice of me to offer.

Think of it this way -- whenever the DM describes something to the players, the players have to spend a moment's effort to translate what they hear into a reaction on the part of their character. When the DM actually acts out something, or says something as an NPC, the players don't have to perform that translation -- they can just react. The barriers to belief drop sharply.

I spend a lot of time preparing things and most of the time my dramatic moments are just ruined and the mood destroyed.

Well, you've basically got four options.

1. Carry on the way things are. Resign yourself to frustration.
2. Dump these bozos and find some new players who appreciate all your hard work (just kidding on the bozos bit).
3. Explain to your players how you want to run your games. Ask them to give a little. To trust you and play YOUR game at least half-way.
4. Change your style of DMing to play THEIR game at least half-way.
   [/list=1]
   What I suspect you'll find is that a combination of 3 and 4 will take place, and everyone in your group will have to decide if they're enjoying the game. There'll be some adjustment. But I recommend against 1 (an unhappy DM is never a great DM) and you may not be able to execute 2 if your player selection is limited or if the "bozos" in question are friends or whatever.
   

   Maybe I'm a terrible DM.

   Yeah, maybe. But at least you're trying to be better. Keep trying. Keep asking questions here -- there's lots of smart, patient types who are more than willing to help out a DM in trouble. I know cause they've helped me.

 

[mmu1]

Well... Here are my $0.02

I think there are two common problems that lead to player complaining and eye-rolling:

1. The DM finds it easier to just wing things, invent things on the spot, make contrived NPCs or ones that break the rules, rather than do things the hard way and challenge the players by staying within the rules. It's inconsistent and makes the players feel like they're not in control of their characters.

2. The DM plays "by the rules" but gets a little carried away when taking advantage of being able to pre-plan and tailor encounters, as well as knowing the party tactics and tendencies - because he doesn't want things to be a cakewalk, and anticlimactic. So the enemies end up seeming untouchable, and the players get frustrated. Usually there's a limit to just how much of a challenge the players want.

I've been on the receiving end of #1 of a bunch of time, and have been guilty of #2 myself once in a while...

Also, in this case it sounds like the player and DM interests don't exactly match, if they really can't sit still and listen to a description of a place or interact with an NPC and keep pushing for more combat... Nothing you can really do about that.