PDF Chat -- For Further Questions

[HalWhitewyrm]

Hello. Though not brought up in any of the chats so far, this is certainly on topic.

In the last 2 weeks alone, I've been reading two threads in the d20 Modern, d20 System & OGL Games forum where the topic of PDF pricing reared its head (and in an ugly manner in both cases), namely this thread started by Adamant Ent. and this thread started by LPJ Design. Feel free to read them for reference.
In addition, I received two reviews in which one of the factors in which my products had points taken off was the whole price-per-page issue that gets raised in the LPJ thread above.

In that same thread, Phil did a good job of arguing the case for the PDF pricing model, but I've kept thinking about this, and I wonder if this is going to be one of those issues which we, as a group of PDF publishers, will need to address, namely educating the consumers on the difference of print vs. PDF pricing, especially when it comes to price-per-page. As Phil pointed out, the price-per-page of a print book is way lower than that of a PDF, but print usually has a huge run that averages out the cost, while those that cry out about this fail to consider that the price of a PDF normally includes free updates (something print publishers cannot do), thus working out to the advantage of the customer.

What are your thoughts?

 

[annadobritt]

Hal, I have the feeling that no matter what is done, people will complain about something.

Coming up with a way to figure out what the pricing of pdfs would be is good idea. I have a difficult time figuring out how much to charge for the pdfs I've done. Should more be charged if it includes a lot of maps? For shorter pdfs, should there be any artwork at all? Maybe create some sort of chart?

Someone did a post a while back that included a breakdown of what it costs to produce a print book. Can't remember offhand who it was. (And of course after I finish this post, I will remember it.)

 

[GMSkarka]

In the last 2 weeks alone, I've been reading two threads in the d20 Modern, d20 System & OGL Games forum where the topic of PDF pricing reared its head (and in an ugly manner in both cases)

In both cases, a single person was behind the subject "rearing its head." Be careful that you don't fall into the trap of the internet echo chamber--where a small number of voices (or even a single voice) can be mistaken as representative of a larger segment of the market.

In that same thread, Phil did a good job of arguing the case for the PDF pricing model, but I've kept thinking about this, and I wonder if this is going to be one of those issues which we, as a group of PDF publishers, will need to address

I'll be blunt about this:

Take a look at the top sales list in every category at RPGNow. See how many of the publishers on those lists release products that have been criticized on the price-per-page model in those threads you mentioned.

Somehow, I don't see this as a problem.

At all.

 

[TheLe]

The other thing I found very interesting was that for Phil Reed/Ronin Arts, PR have no effect on sales; it's almost as if Ronin Arts has become so successful it has surpassed the need for a PR.

Yeah, that comment surprised me too.

This is totally opposite for me though -- I depend on press releases to entice new and existing customers. All my current customers constantly hit the same websites that I send press releases too, so press releases are critical for me, not to mention it helps create a buzz. As an after effect, it keeps people coming to those websites, since they depend on those sites to provide new news.

New customers are equally important, and although someone may have absolutely no interest in Unorthodox Druids, they may have an interest in Unorthodox Monks that is being released a month earlier. So it is vitally important for my own business to send out press releases, and coupons, and ads, etc. Even if it just "catches the eye" of someone new, that is good enough for me.

~Le

 

[madelf]

Somehow, I don't see this as a problem.

At all.

Especially as your subscription plan and the compilation model followed by some of the other publishers pretty much slams the door on anything resembling a valid argument about price-per-page.

Personally (speaking as a consumer) I think having both options is the way to go. To use your Thrilling Tales line as an example... Even though I love pulp, I wouldn't buy it if it was one book, and I'm not even buying a subscription. That's because most of the line isn't what I want, as I don't play much D20. A bunch of Advanced Classes would be useless to me. But that "Gamemaster's Guide to Pulp Adventure" is something I'm very interested in. Because you do the small PDFs I can just get that, where I would have skipped the whole product if it was only sold as a single, more expensive book. I'm sure I'm not unique.

And regardless of what I think, the sales say people like short PDFs. Let the people who don't like them know there's another option, and they really should have no reason to complain (which is not to say they won't but...)

 

[PJ-Mason]

Hello. Though not brought up in any of the chats so far, this is certainly on topic.

In that same thread, Phil did a good job of arguing the case for the PDF pricing model, but I've kept thinking about this, and I wonder if this is going to be one of those issues which we, as a group of PDF publishers, will need to address, namely educating the consumers on the difference of print vs. PDF pricing, especially when it comes to price-per-page. As Phil pointed out, the price-per-page of a print book is way lower than that of a PDF, but print usually has a huge run that averages out the cost, while those that cry out about this fail to consider that the price of a PDF normally includes free updates (something print publishers cannot do), thus working out to the advantage of the customer.

What are your thoughts?

Even print books PPP can get maligned when compared to others. There is only so much consumer compassion to a publisher's plight. Rather than stress a weakness of the PDF business, I think the key is to stress the benefits of PDFs over Print. Or at least research whether or not the benefits suit the customers interests and see if they need to be adjusted. A big problem with the PDF business is that not of all of the advantages of the PDF model are used by a good chunk of PDF publishers (updates, coupons, etc). So a lot of the benefits of PDFs aren't realized by some consumers. I think its each publishers duty to make sure the pdf consumers know that their products are thoroughly supported (if they are). I think it was HellHound that mentioned using a Legend system for pdfs, so that those who has printer friendly products would add an icon, those slated for regular updates would have an icon, etc. That way a consumer could look at the product and know for sure what benefits came with it. I'll admit i don't know how effective this would be, but i do think its worth considering. Its a far more attractive system than a Quality Label system, i'll tell you that.
The PPP is built into the consumers mind at this point. Look at reviews on this site and others like it, the price-per-page is always mentioned in the reviews.

To be honest though, i agree with GMSkarka, Anna, and Madelf. Its not that big a deal. For all their supposed malignancy, the "expensive" small pdfs seem to sell well enough. As a consumer, i make the judgement on whether i want to pay 2-3 dollars for a 5 page pdf and if i think i'm getting taken or not. I usually don't. I don't complain about it, but someone is going to.

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[HalWhitewyrm]

I think it was HellHound that mentioned using a Legend system for pdfs, so that those who has printer friendly products would add an icon, those slated for regular updates would have an icon, etc. That way a consumer could look at the product and know for sure what benefits came with it.

You know, that sounds like an interesting idea. And if we can get more than a handful of publishers to use them, they may catch on across the board. Hmm...

 

[jmucchiello]

You know, that sounds like an interesting idea. And if we can get more than a handful of publishers to use them, they may catch on across the board. Hmm...

This would make more sense if it was an RPGNow flag like the existing ratings:

Product Ratings:
Combat:
Puzzles & Traps:
NPC Interaction:
Audience:
System:

When they are left blank, they do not print. Similarly, Print Friendly and Screen Friendly options could be added to the "add new product/update product" screens so RPGNow would include the symbols right on the page and he could make them clickable to a mini-popup window explaining what they mean.

This way the publishers don't have to fight over what is or isn't a good icon for this. And publishers who don't care, don't have to buyin.

I'd also like to see a page count feature right in RPGNow with the understanding that page count excludes non-content pages. Combining the ideas, instead of being check boxes, you could have a page count for the onscreen version and a page count for the printed version.

 

[philreed]

I'd also like to see a page count feature right in RPGNow with the understanding that page count excludes non-content pages. Combining the ideas, instead of being check boxes, you could have a page count for the onscreen version and a page count for the printed version.

The problem is, non-content is very subjective. One of my recent releases includes a lot of full-pages that are designed as player handouts. One individual didn't see these as having any value so, for him, they aren't content. Others do see these as valuable . . . it's hell.

Just like everything else we deal with on a regular basis (such as my heat being out and the temperature outside dropping . . . hurry repairman, please).

 

[Warden]

Customers complaining that your page count in "inaccurate" based on their views on whether or not cover pages should be counted, OGL should be counted, etc., etc. really isn't something major to concern ourselves with. It's been said before and will be repeated again: there are just some complaints where you nod your head and say "Okay, I hear you. I just have to walk in the opposite direction from you now." I've worked in customer service management for most of my professional life, so you have to do this a lot without saying words such as "waste," "devoid," and "frivolous."

But the idea of adding page counts, printer friendly, and possibly more to RPGNow itself is a great idea. I'll send an email to James to get his thoughts on the matter and get him to post them here.