Can you solve complex quantum physics problems given plenty of time? I'd guess not (if so, please pick any other complex topic you have no knowledge of). The PCs are not super-geniuses that can solve any problem given enough time. In the case of a secret door, you could have overlooked the trigger, or manipulated it incorrectly, and not be able to figure it out.
D&D 5E Perception, Passive Perception, and Investigation
I guess I don’t find that to be an interesting outcome in a game of make believe?
I guess we’re looking for different forms of entertainment
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Yes, and yet, somehow I did eventually find them again. If I hadn’t needed to get to work, there would have been no meaningful consequence to finding them eventually instead of immediately.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
A task also needs a possibility of success for a check to be called for to resolve it. I lack whatever a prerequisite proficiency to even have a chance at succeeding at complex quantum physics problems.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
That's generally not the sort of thing that's meant by "consequence of failure" because the door remaining unopened is the same result as if an attempt to open it had not been made in the first place.
No, because if a task is being attempted repeatedly and a passive check is involved I, as the DM, am rolling against the player's passive score (after converting the DC into a bonus). Unless advantage/disadvantage are in play, the odds of success are identical regardless of whether I call for a passive or active check. (And when adv/disadv are involved, the odds are very similar at typical combinations of bonuses and DCs, and close enough at the more extreme ones.)
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
It's in discussions like these where it's easy to see which DMs use progress combined with a setback on certain failed checks and which ones don't. Failed the Intelligence (Investigation) check to figure out how the secret door works? You figure it out, but make noise in the doing and have drawn unwanted attention to yourself. Now we have a new interesting situation to resolve.
One can also assign a resolution time to common tasks in adventuring locations (say, 10 minutes), then put a wandering monster check at particular intervals (maybe every 10, 30, or 60 minutes). At that point, every failed check becomes wasted time (a meaningful consequence in this context) which pushes the PCs closer to having monsters show up to bother them. This also works with any sort of time pressure e.g. save the prince before midnight or he is sacrificed by the cultists.
One can also assign a resolution time to common tasks in adventuring locations (say, 10 minutes), then put a wandering monster check at particular intervals (maybe every 10, 30, or 60 minutes). At that point, every failed check becomes wasted time (a meaningful consequence in this context) which pushes the PCs closer to having monsters show up to bother them. This also works with any sort of time pressure e.g. save the prince before midnight or he is sacrificed by the cultists.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
You can also combine these techniques - pass the check, succeed at the task in X amount of time; fail the check, succeed in Y amount of time (where Y > X).
There can be totally appropriate and legitimate overlap with Perception and Investigation. It's a case-by-case, dependent on the situation basis.
The party enters a room in which a locked secret door with a special trigger/opening lever secretted on the bookshelf (let's say an statuette of some unremarkable material...we'll just say, some polished grey stone in the shape of a bull. shrug Why not?).
You walk into the room and wander around, Passive Perception checks for all. You might notice something about the section of floor or wall that gets your attention. You might notice a small unremarkable stone statue on the shelf among some old musty tomes and what appears to be a rotted wooden box. You might notice a vague salty odor or mildly damp feeling in the air that is different from the corridor you just left.
Player 1: [typical ask] "Do I notice anything?" or "I am perceiving." or something similar. = Activates an "active" Perception roll. Is there a sliver of light along the floor? A nearly imperceptible draft or waft of odor from something beyond the door? Does the wall material feel different than the surrounding wall? Some muffled sound to be heard? A scuffed area on this particular section of the floor? You find no way to open this section of wall, but you're positive there's something beyond this part of the wall. Seems to be locked.
Player 2: "I am poking around/rifling/examining the room." or "I search the room." or something similiar = Activates an Investigation roll. You are actively looking and checking for anything notable or amiss. There are scuff marks on this section of floor. Carefully going over that section of wall above the scuffs, you notice an intermittent draft of cool, vaguely sea-scented air. There's no discernable way to open or release this section of wall. Rifling the desk drawers reveal no keys or notes regarding the secret door. Everything on the shelf is notably dusty except this fist-sized stone bull statue.
This door can be revealed by a successful roll of the 3 kinds. Once detected, one might Perceive, but can not Investigate, what is beyond it. One might Investigate, but can not Perceive (passive or active), to find the opening mechanism (moving the bull statue or picking it up or whatever) and determine how to open it.
I would say there is no such thing as "passive investigation." You can't be, I would say for my games/rulings, "investigating" something without being deliberate about it.
The party enters a room in which a locked secret door with a special trigger/opening lever secretted on the bookshelf (let's say an statuette of some unremarkable material...we'll just say, some polished grey stone in the shape of a bull. shrug Why not?).
You walk into the room and wander around, Passive Perception checks for all. You might notice something about the section of floor or wall that gets your attention. You might notice a small unremarkable stone statue on the shelf among some old musty tomes and what appears to be a rotted wooden box. You might notice a vague salty odor or mildly damp feeling in the air that is different from the corridor you just left.
Player 1: [typical ask] "Do I notice anything?" or "I am perceiving." or something similar. = Activates an "active" Perception roll. Is there a sliver of light along the floor? A nearly imperceptible draft or waft of odor from something beyond the door? Does the wall material feel different than the surrounding wall? Some muffled sound to be heard? A scuffed area on this particular section of the floor? You find no way to open this section of wall, but you're positive there's something beyond this part of the wall. Seems to be locked.
Player 2: "I am poking around/rifling/examining the room." or "I search the room." or something similiar = Activates an Investigation roll. You are actively looking and checking for anything notable or amiss. There are scuff marks on this section of floor. Carefully going over that section of wall above the scuffs, you notice an intermittent draft of cool, vaguely sea-scented air. There's no discernable way to open or release this section of wall. Rifling the desk drawers reveal no keys or notes regarding the secret door. Everything on the shelf is notably dusty except this fist-sized stone bull statue.
This door can be revealed by a successful roll of the 3 kinds. Once detected, one might Perceive, but can not Investigate, what is beyond it. One might Investigate, but can not Perceive (passive or active), to find the opening mechanism (moving the bull statue or picking it up or whatever) and determine how to open it.
I would say there is no such thing as "passive investigation." You can't be, I would say for my games/rulings, "investigating" something without being deliberate about it.
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