Perception: We've all gone blind!

[ZSutherland]

So far, having DMed 3 sessions of KotS, and played in one session with the full RAW, I am displeased with two facets of the perception skill.

1) Only rogue and ranger can train this skill without blowing a feat on it. So, assuming a 4 person party with all roles filled, if your striker is a warlock, the party is effectively blind and deaf. Using standard point buy, the best you could do at 1st level, is have an elf cleric (18 Wis: +4, +2 racial) = passive perception 16.

2) Stealth is heavily favored by the perception rules. The goblin sharpshooter (highly appropriate for a 1st level encounter) has a +12 to stealth checks. Attempting to find him after he moves to concealment and hides requires him to roll a 1, 2, or 3 on his check if you have the above best possible case when no one is trained in perception. However, even if you do have someone trained in it (the cleric took Skill Training: Perception at 1st level), you've raised your passive perception to 21. You can still only find the sharpshooter if he rolls less than 8 or less. If he's more than 10 squares away from you, and he certainly wants to be, reduce his necessary roll by 2.

In 3e, this wouldn't have been much of a problem, because we had a tendency to fight in 30'x30' rooms that were effectively barren. In 4e, there's a lot more terrain and such. I like that improvement immensely, but it makes it awfully easy for enemy stealthers to attack from concealment, move to concealment, hide, and repeat that every round.

I suppose the same is true for our strikers (unless, again, you took a warlock striker instead of a rogue or ranger, who can both train Stealth w/o a feat), but it seems less advantageous.

Are we doing something wrong? Is there something missing? We chased a sharpshooter for 8 rounds last night, and never had clear line of sight on him.

 

[Stalker0]

Rogues, Rangers, all humans and all eladrin can have it at 1st level without spending their regular 1st level feat.

Also, are you taking into account when a creature hides after moving at least 2 squares, it takes a -5 to its stealth check?

But keep this in mind, stealth should be better than perception! Two reasons:

1) Its easier to hide than to find.
2) In general, you are making 1 stealth roll against 3, 4, or 5 perception rolls. If even 1 perception roll hits, they will find you. Keeping that in mind, stealth may actually be too hard!

 

[ZSutherland]

Rogues, Rangers, all humans and all eladrin can have it at 1st level without spending their regular 1st level feat.

I'm missing the part where all humans and eladrin can take this. The human bonus skill must be chosen from your class list (PHB p. 46), and I see nothing in the Eladrin block (PHB p. 38) that suggests they can take this, unless it has something to do wth Fey Origin that isn't in the PHB. Can you point me in the right direction?

Also, are you taking into account when a creature hides after moving at least 2 squares, it takes a -5 to its stealth check?

No, and after review, I still don't see it under either the Stealth or Perception rules in the PHB. Is this mentioned elsewhere in the book or in the DMG somewhere?

But keep this in mind, stealth should be better than perception! Two reasons:

1) Its easier to hide than to find.
2) In general, you are making 1 stealth roll against 3, 4, or 5 perception rolls. If even 1 perception roll hits, they will find you. Keeping that in mind, stealth may actually be too hard!

1) Granted
2) Not exactly. According to the rules for the Perception skill (PHB p. 186-187), our DM was using the sharpshooter's rolled Stealth (d20 + 12) vs. our Passive Perception. Our striker is a warlock (me), so our best Passive Perception is 14 (the dwarf cleric). She can only spot him if he rolls a 1 and is within 10 squares. Our DM suggested, as per the rules about Search, that it required a Standard Action to actively look for the little blighter (allowing us to roll d20+mod), and we spotted him that way a few times, but he would simply move and stealth.

 

[Stalker0]

Pg. 188 of the PHB has the stealth table. The move penalty is there.

Humans get a bonus feat that they meet prereqs for. Skill Training has no prereqs, the skill does NOT need to be on your class list.

Eladrin get an extra trained skill as part of their racial package, its called Eldarin Education.

 

[ZSutherland]

Aha! That'll teach me. Thanks. I'll point my DM towards that table. I wonder if that move 2 squares rule counts Misty Stepping into a concealed area...

 

[reff42]

Don't forget that creatures have to distract their enemies so they can hide; just like PCs. If the PCs watch a goblin turn a corner, they are going to expect him (or him and more goblins) to come out and attack. The exceptions of this are when the creature uses the bluff skill to create a distraction. (note that this is essentially an encounter power skill use)

 

[Samurai]

Another suggestion... when you spot him, don't let him know you've spotted him! If he still thinks he's well hidden, he'll probably stay where he is. Signal to the other characters where he is (behind your back), and have them move to block escape while still pretending to not know where he is. Then everyone attack the runt at once, and he'll have nowhere to run to.

 

[ondali]

2) Not exactly. According to the rules for the Perception skill (PHB p. 186-187), our DM was using the sharpshooter's rolled Stealth (d20 + 12) vs. our Passive Perception. Our striker is a warlock (me), so our best Passive Perception is 14 (the dwarf cleric). She can only spot him if he rolls a 1 and is within 10 squares. Our DM suggested, as per the rules about Search, that it required a Standard Action to actively look for the little blighter (allowing us to roll d20+mod), and we spotted him that way a few times, but he would simply move and stealth

I'll checkup witht the wording, but passive perception should only be used when the players are not aware. so yes, when the players are not yet aware of the sharshooter its skill (which is 8 more than the best perception in the group) should make it easy to hide for him. but when the are activly looking for him, and not distracted by combat or so, let all players roll vs his roll. this would result is sometimes he rolling 12+ which makes it impossible to see him that round, but also rolling 1-5 which makes it possible for multple players to see him.

for other skills, aid another would help, but in this case i would let everyone roll seperatly.

 

[Atlatl Jones]

How is this worse from 3e, in which only the Rogue, Ranger, and Druid has listen and spot as class skills, and had to blow twice as many skill points on them. Plus, in 4e, it's easy and cheap to spend a feat to become trained in perception, or multiclass into ranger and take perception as your trained skill.

You're also only considering 1st level. At higher levels, characters still get their 1/2 level bonus on untrained skills, plus their wisdom modifier. In 3e, only the rogue, ranger, or druid would have any hope of ever seeing a hiding opponent of their CR.

 

[drothgery]

So far, having DMed 3 sessions of KotS, and played in one session with the full RAW, I am displeased with two facets of the perception skill.

1) Only rogue and ranger can train this skill without blowing a feat on it. So, assuming a 4 person party with all roles filled, if your striker is a warlock, the party is effectively blind and deaf. Using standard point buy, the best you could do at 1st level, is have an elf cleric (18 Wis: +4, +2 racial) = passive perception 16.

What's the big deal about spending a feat on it? There are several threads going on about the lack of impressive feats, and you get a feat every other level in any case. So why not spend one on skill training?