PFS: Now legal to own SLAVES in PFS - Your thoughts please

[pawsplay]

Simply put it is a part of the world much like it was a widely practiced part of our own.

Is.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

True, I meant that it was widely accepted and no one really though it "evil" just the way it was. While there is still slavery is is no longer widely accepted and is now viewed as an evil thing by most of the world.

In Golarion only one nation actively views it as evil and most nations view them as troublemakers

 

[IronWolf]

In Adventurer's Armory, there are 5 different types of slaves listed as available under the heading Black Market Items. This would seem to make it clear that slaves are now available for purchase and use within Pathfinder Society, or was there an oversight that needs correcting in the next version of the PSGOP?

This has been cleared up on the Paizo boards. Josh Frost has stated that slaves are available for purchase in PFS if one wishes to do so with their gold. They are there for fluff purposes and not intended to have stat blocks or be used in combat.

As a GM, this puts me in a pickle. I've always considered human trafficking, rape, and kidnapping to be evil..but now it's evidently not. It leaves us GM's at the table to decide if the player 'pushes it too far.' Problem for me is "slavery is evil" and if I don't allow it at the table, I can be BANNED as a GM.

Also, considering that PFS is /not just a home game/, I'm wondering how this plays out when I've got my black friends at the table or perhaps some children when you've got a player getting his rocks-off on the slavery issue. Suddently as a GM, ___I'm___ going to be considered the bad guy by both sides.

Any thoughts on the issue?

As noted here by others the purchase of slaves in and of itself is not evil in this fantasy world in a great many nations. Now if a player chooses to abuse or perform other evil acts on said slave then that drifts to an evil character.

There are any number of items available for purchase in PFS that could be used for evil purposes, but whose purchase in and of itself is not evil.

Also as noted before, if a player comes to the table with a character with slaves and make an issue of it at a table to the detriment of others there are PFS rules that allow you to deal with this. Part of GM'ing is making subjective rulings at any particular table on a multitude of things - both within the game and out of the game to ensure the enjoyment of others.

 

[redboxrazor]

*warning! rant approaching!*

It is a game. If there is something you don't like about that, there is an explicit rule (pointed out several times over at Paizo version of this thread), that you are free to disallow stuff you don't like.

Quoting: We’re all friends here and we’re all playing a game together
with the singular purpose of (hopefully) having a wonderful
time... Extreme forms of dysfunctional play will not
be tolerated.

Myself, I have no problems with mature stuff in my games. It's a responsibility I know I can handle... and if some person ever tries to tell me that they cannot tolerate something, we can resolve it properly and politely.

Oh, if there is one thing I dislike, it is a politically correct person telling me that something is not right because someone else may take dim view of that.
So if someone was to come over to me and told me that "PFS blah blah allows slaves blah blah and my friends are black blah blah", I would say:

"Ask your friends first. Don't think for them - they are adults, too, and they can think on their own. Remember, political correctness is evil because it tries to think for you."

"Oh, and if they laugh at you, bear with it. You were the one to overinterpret the rules."

Regards,
Ruemere

This.

I can't give you XP from my iPhone app, so I owe you one. : )

 

[Steel_Wind]

As has been noted in several posts here, slavery is entrenched in a significant portion of the nations of Inner Sea in the Golarion setting. Slavery is a recurring theme in Golarion and is an evergreen hook for many adventures.

Andora is aggressivley abolitionist as are most of the River Kingdoms. If you want to deal with this issue in your Golarion campaign, Andora is the principal nation from which to launch your staunchly abolitionist characters and go put the evil slavers to the sword. Even if those "evil slavers" purport to be neutral, too. Put em to the sword and be done with it.

And if your god objects to your moral inflexibility on the matter, add HIS name to the list too, in my opinion. You'll get your chance to see He or She receives her come uppance and moral correction too, all in good time.

This issue is not new to PFS in 2.2. The institution of slavery has been introduced heavily in the Campaign setitng book and even in earlier Pathfinder Scenarios. See, for example, Season 1's Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible.

My point is that the issue of slavery and thralldom is not a new one in Golarion and it is not a consequence of an accidental application or interpretation of an overly inclusive rule reference. It's always been there.

If this is unsettling for you, I would not allow it. No matter what the rules or suggested PFS setting document suggests in any way, shape or form. I am certain beyond any doubt that Joshua Frost would wholeheartedly concur and support that decision in terms of what you will or will not permit in your game -- even if it is a PFS scenario game.

As for whether or not slavery is "evil" per se or simply a repressive feature of a society's social heirarchy and economy is a matter of opinion. I happen to subscribe to the view that it is an instrinsically evil institution which is incapable of moral or legal defence. I apply that same fundamental value to my own personal judgment of history, politics and religion. Some others may -- and clearly do -- disagree. They are entitled to their fundamentally flawed world view

None of this debate, however, is new to Golarion or the Pathfinder setting. If it's not fun for you - or it's not fun for even ONE of your players, don't allow it. Period. End of debate.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Do you consider every slave owning person of the past as evil? Basically, do you consider most of the world evil in the past? Do you consider most of the people in The Bible and most of the various holy books evil? Even the Christian God condoned slavery. So did the same God of the Jews and Muslims. Slavery existed in just about every single culture in the world, even many native tribes.

It all depends on how the slavery is done.

If the slavery is done like you see in many evil fantasy novels where there are no rules to it and slaves are treated as disposable and useable in experiments, then most likely that slavery is evil. The most recent example of this is probably the Nazi use of Jews as slave labor and disposable people.

If slavery is a form of paying off debts or surviving as a prisoner of war with a person having a chance of becoming a free man once his debt is paid off or becoming a citizen once they have proved their worth, then maybe it isn't so evil. Maybe it is more lawful. The Jews had specific rules for their slaves as did the Egyptian. They used their slaves hard, but they also let them live in their own communities and have their own leaders and the like. I believe the Jews even allowed a slave to eventually earn freedom.

Slavery has not always been the same everywhere. And in some ways it could be a more merciful alternative to massacring an entire group of people once they were defeated. And some slaves have even risen to be prominent citizens in the cultures they were enslaved in or highly trusted counsellors for their masters.

I would say it depends on how the slavery is done as to whether you would punish a player. For example, if your player purchases slaves. Then takes good care of them making sure they are fed, teaching them to read, dressing them well, giving them a chance to earn their freedom, and for the most part proves to be a kindly master, then he isnt' really evil is he?

But if your player is using slaves in his magical experiments, raping them, and selling their children, I say that person is probably evil.

So I'd judge it that way.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Do you consider every slave owning person of the past as evil? Basically, do you consider most of the world evil in the past?

YES -- though "most" was never a true statement, not even in classical times.

Do you consider most of the people in The Bible and most of the various holy books evil? Even the Christian God condoned slavery. So did the same God of the Jews and Muslims. Slavery existed in just about every single culture in the world, even many native tribes.

This does not change the answer above one iota. My answer is still resoundingly and unflinchingly "YES".

It all depends on how the slavery is done.

No - your answer is that. Mine remains a clear and unequivocal "YES".

I am certain that unless you are prepared to change your view on this matter that we will never, ever, agree on this point.

Moreover, were any modern state to purport, in this day and age, to re-establish the institution of slavery and condone the sale of a human being, at auction, to another as chattel? That is a nation that I will do everything in my power - legal or otherwise -- up to and including personally committing acts of terrorism and cold-blooded murder -- to see its ruling class and slaveowners wiped from the very face of the earth at the point of a gun -- my gun -- if necessary. This is not a negotiable point.

I wouldn't willingly die for much - but I would die for that. It's at the very top of a very short list, in fact.

Edit: Thanks ever so much Hobo for paying attention to PirateCat's post below in Post #30. If you are going to be snarky, I would say parsing my initial quote that you purport to lampoon in your snark, that I mentioned the requirements were:

1- acts of a "modern state"; and,
2- "sale at auction, of a human being as chattel"

Those stated requirements would not fit the facts, stats or circumstances posted by you in your ever-so-polite comment, so no, I've not sold the house to buy a Cesna and assorted small arms. Thanks for asking though.

 

[pawsplay]

As for whether or not slavery is "evil" per se or simply a repressive feature of a society's social heirarchy and economy is a matter of opinion. I happen to subscribe to the view that it is an instrinsically evil institution which is incapable of moral or legal defence. I apply that same fundamental value to my own personal judgment of history, politics and religion. Some others may -- and clearly do -- disagree. They are entitled to their fundamentally flawed world view

See? We all CAN get along.

 

[pawsplay]

YES -- though "most" was never a true statement, not even in classical times.

This does not change the answer above one iota. My answer is still resoundingly and unflinchingly "YES".

No - your answer is that. Mine remains a clear and unequivocal "YES".

I am certain that unless you are prepared to change you view on this matter that we will never, ever, agree on this point.

Moreover, were any modern state to purport, in this day and age, to re-establish the institution of slavery and condone the sale of a human being, at auction, to another as chattel? That is a nation that I will do everything in my power - legal or otherwise -- up to and including personally committing acts of terrorism and cold-blooded murder -- to see its ruling class and slaveowners wiped from the very face of the earth at the point of a gun -- my gun -- if necessary. This is not a negotiable point.

I wouldn't willingly die for much - but I would die for that. It's at the very top of a very short list, in fact.

Unfortunately, at the point at which you give George Washington a LE alignment, it becomes difficult to continue this debate meanginfully for my part.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Unfortunately, at the point at which you give George Washington a LE alignment, it becomes difficult to continue this debate meanginfully for my part.

Quite so (and yes, quite so).