PHB 2 power creep

[Victim]

Hybrid dwarf clerics - while lacking a STR bonus, can take Plate and Axe Mastery with an easy 13 initial Con (no extra high stat surcharge) - make for similarly versatile clerics IMO. The minor Second Wind also allows for more healing to hit the rest of the group. Plus Dwarven Weapon Training for cheap damage bonuses and access to better weapons.

And I don't really see ranged clerics having problems with getting surrounded all the time. Especially since marks can be used to punish people for taking OAs - if a defender tags one of the flanking buddies, then the cleric can shift away from the other. Any OA the first target attempts will draw fire. So either the defender's extra offense helps to make up for the problems the cleric is having, or the deterrent effect allows them to get away.

An elf cleric worried about melee should just look at picking up some powers that Shift. Like Boots of the Fencing Master for an encounter minor action shift 2.

I can't really complain about the wizards I've seen. In rather short online games, both the 13th level wizard (Spell Storm) in a game I ran and the 20th level wizard I played (Divine Oracle) seemed to do well. Ignoring shiny newness, I'd generally prefer wizard over the new controllers. And wizards will be getting their own new shinies soon too.

 

[KarinsDad]

More than that, one feat allows any character to make basic melee attacks with their best attribue. Melee Weapon Training means you can have a laser cleric (or wizard, or low strength rogue, or archer ranger, etc.) who can just switch to basic melee attacks when surrounded or making an Opportunity Attack (and probably do more damage than their at-wills anyway) - regardless of their race.

I'm not too bothered by Melee Training. As long as they do not allow any same class powers with the primary ability score, I'm ok.

A melee basic attack. With a staff? Ok.


One of the problems I have historically had with DND is that we have these high level Wizards that have been in hundreds of caverns and have brilliant IQs, but are too stupid to look up and see the Piercer (i.e. low perception). They have a dagger and a staff, but cannot use them against anyone. Their abilities never scaled to stay up with the competition (even slightly).

I kind of like the fact that a PC can blow off a feat and can now do a minor Opportunity Attack and now has one more minor At Will attack in his arsenal. Having just the two At Wills is pretty repetitive and boring.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I kind of like the fact that a PC can blow off a feat and can now do a minor Opportunity Attack and now has one more minor At Will attack in his arsenal. Having just the two At Wills is pretty repetitive and boring.

Hey can you explain this to me? What do you mean by blowing a feat for one more minor (by this I take it you don't mean action) At Will attack? Do you mean melee training means his MBA is effective, rather than he has a NEW attack. Sorry I don't have PHB2 and am getting feat confusion!

 

[Jack99]

Not in my experience. When surrounded (i.e. with 2 or more foes where he cannot just shift back and laser), Divine Glow disappears in one round and the Cleric is stuck with using his few close Dailies or swinging and missing a lot, or at best retreating and doing no offensive action that round..

That's why laser clerics are elves and multi-class to ranger so that they have Yield Ground for sticky situations like that.

 

[Stalker0]

I won't say that the phb 2 classes are necessarily better, but I think they introduce new mechanics that are better...and will hopefully come back to the original classes with their respective splats.

Aftereffects: To me, this is the future of "save ends" type dailies. Currently I find "save ends" dailies to be last too little to compare against the sustain dailies that last the whole fight. However, with an aftereffect, you can now have dailies that last another round or two, and that's significant.

Effect based powers: The avenger is a great example of this, nearly all of his dailies have an effect in the power. It reduces the need for high attack bonuses, and allows a players to activate powers without the forced flavor requirement of a attacking a person.

Further, we are now seeing some effect based encounter powers. I can't think of it off hand, but one of my favorite new attack powers is the avenger encounter power that allows phasing as the effect. That's not just a cool attack power, that's like a utility power rolled into one! That's a power that is neat and interesting, and it required no major structural overhaul.

Improved at-wills The druid is probably the hallmark of this, but I think WOTC is getting the message that since at will powers are going to be commonly used, people want them to be pretty cool...especially for controllers.


So far, the only true power creep with classes I have felt is the sorcerer vs the warlock. The sorcerer's striker mechanic is flat out better than the warlocks imo and seems to serve the same striker/controller role that the warlock does now.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hey can you explain this to me? What do you mean by blowing a feat for one more minor (by this I take it you don't mean action) At Will attack? Do you mean melee training means his MBA is effective, rather than he has a NEW attack. Sorry I don't have PHB2 and am getting feat confusion!

Yes, it means it is now an effective MBA. In the case of a Staff at first level, a possible example:

+2 staff +4 Int = +6 MBA D8+4 damage instead of +2 MBA D8 damage or whatever.

But, it is still minor in the big scheme of things. And it cost a feat.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's why laser clerics are elves and multi-class to ranger so that they have Yield Ground for sticky situations like that.

At 8th level with the cost of 2 feats. Doesn't help much for levels 1 to 7.

 

[NilesB]

(note: sinces its not "two attacks" you also only roll damage once. Its basically like an area attack that doesn't require enemies to be close to eachother, just within 10 of you)

Nope, Ranged and melee attacks with muliple targets roll damage for each target separately, check page 270 of the PHB1 for confirmation.

 

[James McMurray]

As for the rest of your post. I was responding to the original poster, not you. I wasn't asking for (and did not want) your input.

If you're replying to a single person and do not welcome input from others, perhaps a private message would be better than a public thread? Otherwise, isn't it kinda the nature of forums that posting in them assumes a willingness for group conversation?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I won't say that the phb 2 classes are necessarily better, but I think they introduce new mechanics that are better...and will hopefully come back to the original classes with their respective splats.

I do think they're somewhat more efficient than the PHB1 stuff, which isn't really that surprising. A PHB2 cleric would have Wis used for every attack, which would kind of hose my minotaur battle cleric (though not too badly).

But they're not automatically more powerful. I shifted from a rogue to an avenger, and I'm noticing that I've lost some damage output. This is even when taking DPR into account, since the rogue was hitting about 80% of the time with his Piercing Strike with combat advantage (and I could get CA very often). On the other hand, the avenger is vastly more durable and better defended.

Aftereffects: To me, this is the future of "save ends" type dailies. Currently I find "save ends" dailies to be last too little to compare against the sustain dailies that last the whole fight. However, with an aftereffect, you can now have dailies that last another round or two, and that's significant.

I do believe I saw a few Aftereffects in PHB1. But not many. PHB2 has a lot more of them.

It does make them more worth using against elites and solos, though, since they're *always* going to save.

I notice that my avenger's dailies seem to reward being used at the beginning of the fight, rather than being saved for later, since otherwise you lose out on damage, movement, or attack bonus.

So far, the only true power creep with classes I have felt is the sorcerer vs the warlock. The sorcerer's striker mechanic is flat out better than the warlocks imo and seems to serve the same striker/controller role that the warlock does now.

One issue with sorcerer is it's going to have a lot of AoE, and not the happy fun "only enemies" AoE. So he's not as team-friendly for melee characters, which really means they need War Wizardry from FRPG, and probably want Arcane Reach for more flexibility.

Brad