PHB 2 power creep

[keterys]

No, I'm not "completely mistaken". I've actually read that section, which it appears that you have not. At most, you can add a single creature or group of minions to make the encounter more difficult.

There is no "at most" - you are specifically instructed "Don't make the adventure too easy or too difficult for a group. Never being challenged makes for a boring game" along with the specific suggestion of using the scaling the encounter to add more enemies if encounters are too easy. That is certainly the easiest way, but you can also adjust levels upwards and downwards, change the ratio of minions to non-minions, change the location of traps, even order of encounters - in fact, such things have been directly encouraged in the case of replays by campaign staff.

"In short, being the DM for a Living Forgotten Realms adventure isn’t about following every word on the page; it’s about creating a fun, challenging game environment for the players. A great deal of good information on being a DM for a D&D game can be found in Chapters 1-2 of the Dungeon Master's Guide."

As for the rest of your post. I was responding to the original poster, not you. I wasn't asking for (and did not want) your input. You telling that I'm wrong is not "meaningful evidence" as you call it. I've run and played dozens and dozens of modules since LFR came out, both before and after PHB2/Martial Powers. I have a dozen characters ranging from lvl 2 to (several at) lvl 9. I have a large basis of experience upon which my opinion has been formed (limited to the heroic tier, since the LFR campaign hasn't put out Paragon lvl modules yet).

I've had a similar level of experience of play. The level 1-4 LFR mods are just plain easy with PHB characters or PHB2 characters - if anything the PHB2 group I ran through it had a harder time than some of the PHB groups I've run, but that's probably because they're unfamiliar with the powers. That's one thing people have certainly gained - experience with the rules. People hardly ever show up with the really horrible combinations lately.

There are certainly some outliers - both new fighter options, especially battlerager, spitting cobra stance, guileful switch, for instance. Of course, those are all in Martial Power, not PHB2. AV's superior weapons and several items certainly upped the power level... but that's still not PHB2.

Looking at the PHB2 just for heroic tier, the shaman's pet can be hard to figure out for many DMs and end up quite powerful as a result - especially if a module has a way for it to completely block a corridor against weaker foes. The barbarian's damage numbers are certainly impressive, but not more so than a ranger's. The avenger is hardly breaking anything at low level, no many how many vicious fullblades they wield. Bards are good for forced movement, it's true - that's their shtick, and it's not exactly broken. If they hadn't addressed the Valor build there would be more to complain about there. Invoker is a more well-rounded wizard, but behaves much the same but with worse dailies so that's still fine. Druid is extraordinarily interesting and a great bit of design on showing new controller options... but broken? Are we looking at the same low level powers? Sorcerer I'd at least grant you a gut check on since it does look more powerful than a warlock. They're designed to do area striking, and they're quite good at it. They don't appear to be more powerful than a ranger, but I'd say they're certainly more robust than a warlock. There's a lot of complaints about the warlock's damage output, so make of that as you will. Etc.

Anyhow, I can totally believe any complaint that there is power creep in PHB2 - lord knows I've ranted and raved about expertise and such - but there is just about every book, because that's the nature of RPG publishing. But a headlong dash? You should really bring some evidence to the table if you're going to say that. I find MP far more dashy than PHB2. Far more.

P.S. While I don't have 10 LFR characters like cdrjcsn, I do have 5 LFR characters in the heroic tier, as well as a non-LFR character, and I primarily DM (about twice a week). I've been running for barbarians and bards since the previews went up, and plowing two groups of characters through LFR mods since the PHB2 hit a few weeks back.

 

[hong]

So the move towards a single attack specifically is mostly a good thing, but I don't like the feeling I'm getting, that I've been sold a game that's still in development, and that the power creep we're seeing isn't WotC letting the baseline drift, but WotC trying to establish a baseline in the first place.

Eh. This is a "sunk cost", to delve into economic terms for a moment. It doesn't matter what's happened before; only what happens from now on. Now if you didn't trust WotC to get the baseline right, that would be a valid reason to be suspicious about splats.

 

[KarinsDad]

But a headlong dash? You should really bring some evidence to the table if you're going to say that.

I think that Shifter has totally dominated the Cleric build.

Having both Righteous Brand and Lance of Faith at +4 to hit at first level is pretty meaty. The Rogue just waits for RB to hit and his Daily is almost home free.

And the Shifter Cleric is an A shaped Cleric, not a V shaped one. That's real significant. The Laser Cleric is no longer the bad boy. He's second fiddle to the Shifter Cleric that can take any of the Laser powers (except maybe Cha ones where his boost might be lower), and any of the Battle Cleric powers. In addition to regenerating himself so that he can concentrate his healing on other PCs.

This is just one example.

 

[keterys]

What, because it gives +2 Str and Wis, but has no other benefits that help being a cleric? I'd hate to think how broken half-elven warlocks were in the PHB, cause they got both Con and Cha.

Now, half-elves getting an at-will at paragon? That's serious power creep for half-elves. Though, it makes me happy that half-elves no longer get the short end of the stick racially... haven't made up my mind whether it was just enough, too much, or a little too high level.

 

[KarinsDad]

What, because it gives +2 Str and Wis, but has no other benefits that help being a cleric? I'd hate to think how broken half-elven warlocks were in the PHB, cause they got both Con and Cha.

Those are the benefits. As for other Cleric benefits, Longtooth Shifting saves on healing resources due to regeneration and also increases damage to all attacks, even laser attacks.

Have you ever played a Laser Cleric? I have. They get in trouble when surrounded if they do not have a high Str so they can use a melee weapon. Big trouble because of OAs.

A Shifter Cleric is almost never in trouble surrounded. He just switches to Str attacks instead of Wis attacks until he is no longer surrounded.


Sure, one could play a 16 Str 18 Wis non-Shifter Laser quasi-Battle Cleric with a few melee capabilities. Or, one could play an 18 Str 16 Wis non-Shifter Battle quasi-Laser Cleric.

But typically, most people prefer to not bump Str this high and use Dex and Light Armor if playing a Laser Cleric.

Compared to the non-Shifter clerics, the Longtooth Shifter averages more damage, regardless of which type of attack (being +2 damage to all attacks when bloodied is nice).

Laser Clerics have limited range. The Shifter Cleric does not worry about that. He armors up and wades into combat. That way, he is close to his Defender and gives Combat Advantage.

Sure, a normal Battle Cleric can do this too. But he's not as good with things like Radiant damage. The Shifter dominates the normal Battle Cleric and can still Paragon Path into the good Laser Cleric paths (best of both worlds).


Let's look at the to hit math:

First level 18 Str 18 Wis Shifter Cleric vs. 16 Str 18 Wis non-Shifter Laser quasi-Battle Cleric

Foes tend to have AC level +14, other defenses level +12

Mace +6 vs. AC 15, Laser +4 vs. defense 13 vs. Mace +5 vs. AC 15, Laser +4 vs. defense 13

The Laser damage is the same excepted when bloodied. The Mace damage is better all of the time. How much better? Average damage per attack against same level foes is:

Non-bloodied
Shifter Mace: 5.275
Other Mace: 4.3
Shifter Laser: 5.275
Other Laser: 5.275

Bloodied
Shifter Mace: 6.475
Other Mace: 4.3
Shifter Laser: 6.475
Other Laser: 5.275

The only time the other Cleric evenly competes is if they are doing Laser attacks and they are still not bloodied.

The Bloodied surrounded (high Str) Non-Shifter Cleric that is forced to use a melee weapon does 2/3rds the average damage as the Bloodied surrounded Shifter Cleric.


4E is about action economy. The Shifter Cleric takes out foes quicker, hence, the party finishes encounters quicker and uses fewer resources doing it. He also wades into combat in order to give Rogues and Defenders Combat Advantage more often which in turn finishes encounters quicker. The Laser Cleric hangs back and doesn't give this advantage.


The Cleric has finally arrived.

 

[keterys]

So... it is the same as the half-elf warlock in the PHB. Man, I hate the reliance on ability scores that people feel. I wonder if people are thinking the same thing for the Half-Orc for Ranger, though.

Fwiw, I have played clerics and had many played at my table - divine glow and other close powers tends to serve the non-strength ones well, and while ability to melee is a very good thing and I do like str+wis builds for clerics quite well, I'd not begrudge the strengths of the elven cleric who is dealing good damage at range 30 or the focused laser cleric who has stronger sacred flames from his charisma (though I'd not think the bargain worthwhile)

 

[KarinsDad]

divine glow and other close powers tends to serve the non-strength ones well

Not in my experience. When surrounded (i.e. with 2 or more foes where he cannot just shift back and laser), Divine Glow disappears in one round and the Cleric is stuck with using his few close Dailies or swinging and missing a lot, or at best retreating and doing no offensive action that round.

The problem is that Divine Glow is the only such close attack encounter power until level 13 (and there are only two Dailies). There are zero At Will close powers.

Divine Glow is one round out of many. And of course, taking Divine Glow as an "oh shoot I'm in melee" power means that it might often be saved for later in the encounter (not necessarily a good thing) or alternatively it is used too early and does not fulfill it's oh shoot purpose.

Melee was the bane of Laser Clerics (and even Elven Bowmen Clerics). It kept them in check. Now, there is no check. They can handle almost any situation and contribute even more to the success of the team.

 

[Otterscrubber]

We've been pretty much told as much by some of the designers. They decided to err on the side of caution with the Wizard, so the at-wills reflect that.

However, has anyone actually played a high level Wizard?

I would venture to say that they're still one of the most powerful classes at paragon level in either PHB1 or PHB2.

It might not have the ability to output huge DPS like a rain of blows fighter, but they have tons of powers that stun, daze, and blind mutliple creatures as well as modify terrain that can make any fight almost trivial.

Also they have some great defensive abilities for resistances. Gotta love Stoneskin and Resist Elements (the power not the ritual). They can be super durable, or make someone else super durable.

 

[Wyrd]

Right again. They figured out how to make controllers. The Wizard should have some "fixes" coming its way with Arcane power (at least we hope).

Unfortunately, if it is "fixed" in Arcane Power, and not fixed via errata to the PHB, then it is still power creep, if the game ever gets tot he point that a character made with just 1 book is not balanced against characters created with a later book, you have power creep, which is likely unavoidable as time goes on.

WOTC wants you to buy new books, eventually that will push them to include new sparklies that just everyone has to have.

 

[Caliban]

Not in my experience. When surrounded (i.e. with 2 or more foes where he cannot just shift back and laser), Divine Glow disappears in one round and the Cleric is stuck with using his few close Dailies or swinging and missing a lot, or at best retreating and doing no offensive action that round.

The problem is that Divine Glow is the only such close attack encounter power until level 13 (and there are only two Dailies). There are zero At Will close powers.

Divine Glow is one round out of many. And of course, taking Divine Glow as an "oh shoot I'm in melee" power means that it might often be saved for later in the encounter (not necessarily a good thing) or alternatively it is used too early and does not fulfill it's oh shoot purpose.

Melee was the bane of Laser Clerics (and even Elven Bowmen Clerics). It kept them in check. Now, there is no check. They can handle almost any situation and contribute even more to the success of the team.

More than that, one feat allows any character to make basic melee attacks with their best attribue. Melee Weapon Training means you can have a laser cleric (or wizard, or low strength rogue, or archer ranger, etc.) who can just switch to basic melee attacks when surrounded or making an Opportunity Attack (and probably do more damage than their at-wills anyway) - regardless of their race.

Thanks to weapon and implement expertise more attacks land across the board for all characters.

Thanks to the rulings on weapons used as implement the PHB1 feats that give damage with certain elemental types are rendered moot. Just take weapon focus in a Staff (for wizards or invokers), dagger (for sorcerers), sword (for sword mages), get a pact weapon (for warlocks). Almost every implement class now has a weapon based implement they can use Weapon Focus with. (And in my e-mail exchange with Customer Service, the guy basically admitted that this was a change in how they ruled it previously).

All the classes have had their effectiveness increased due to new feats and powers, or new build (tempest fighters can outdamage many strikers now, battle ragers are more resilient than a PHB1 fighter builds and just as sticky, etc.)

Sorcers are now the best striker, and make wizards almost obsolete (especially with Invokers). "Controllers damage multiple targets" - bah. Dragon sorcerers do close blasts and do striker damage to every target, and then do more automatic damage if you try to attack them. Chaos bolt can potentially hit every enemy on the board if the sorcerer is rolling decent (and I've seen it bounce up to 10 times). The only thing the wizard really has left is movable zones of automatic damage. Everything other "controller" thing they can do is done better by one or more of the new classes. (And I like my wizards - I have a lvl 9 elven orb wizard, a lvl 9 human staff wizard, a lvl 7 eladrin staff wizard [was wand but I used an option to switch him to staff wizard] and I will soon be starting an Deva staff wizard, unless I give up and just make a sorcerer).

Twin Strike was one of the best at-will, so now they have class that can effectively "Twin Strike" with any of their melee powers. You don't have to choose between an increased chance to hit and less damage now. You get full damage and a greatly increased chance to hit. I like my Avenger, but the power creep is very evident - add in the "Righteous Rage of Tempus" cheese on top of it and like I said, it's faster than a creep.

It just reminds me of Magic the Gathering, where every new set introduces one or more new game mechanics. Every new book allows the characters to manipulate the rules or environment in new ways. Unforseen interactions are going to result in more and more "broken combos" - or even just basic class features.