PHB 2 power creep

[Blackbrrd]

I just started a new party and the could use all the books (no dragon magazine).

Some of them wanted to try new things and some went for power, this is what I ended up with:

Half-orc Barbarian
Dwarf Fighter
Human Invoker
Elf Avenger
Elf Ranger
Gnome Bard

Two selected a PHB2 race, the rest went for PHB1 races.
Two selected PHB1 classes, the rest went for PHB2 classes.

We have played two short sessions at level 1 (2 encounters each session)

What I experienced as a DM:
The Invoker has a MUCH easier time attacking 2+ enemies every single round than a wizard, and all the damage goes NOW, rather than later.

The ranger still has some problems hitting at low levels, even with free weapon expertise. Pretty decent damage anyhow and a lot of potential.

The Dwarven fighter with a waraxe and the Battle Vigor feature (even at only +2 temp hp at level 1), works like hell. He is sticky, can take one hell of a beating and when he hits, it really hurts. WOW, second wind as a minor action is under-evaluated.

The Barbarian critted 7 times the last session and went ballistic.

The Bard chose Majestic word and generally healed for 12 hp and gave 5 temp hp, this rocks. In addition, the sliding helped a lot to prevent getting flanked.

*The player of the Elf Avenger was a no-show - his girlfriend was visiting. I bet he had a good time anyway

To me, it seems that the new and old classes are about as powerful, they just work differently. For instance the Bard doesn't really look that powerful at first sight, but he does a lot for the party.

The Barbarian is a bit less tactical than the rogue since you don't rely on flanking to do damage, but on the other hand, you have to be positioned correctly to be able to use the extra free charge/free basic attacks you get all over the place.

I bet the Avenger will do a lot for the Fighter/Barbarian to help with flanking and keeping ranged attackers busy. In addition, the ability to let another character roll two attack dice instead of one is pretty nice when the Barbarian hits for 1d12+1d6+4 and the Fighter hits for 1d12+10...

 

[Jack99]

I ain't too worried. I see more diversity than power-creep. The barbarian has me a little worried, if any class.

 

[mach1.9pants]

IMO one of the most important things in a class is their at wills. 4E comabt drags (even when I am dropping about 20% of the baddies HPs) so at wills come in to play a lot.

If you compare the PHB at wills to Wiz at wills they are better but not much, The Rouse has admitted the Wiz at wills are less than ideal (i.e. they suck)
If you compare the Wiz at wills (the lowest) to the at wills of any class that has come since the PHB they suck the big one. The at wills of any class since released are head and shoulders above the Wiz's. Miles better, so much so that I don't let my Wiz player look at them, he'd get depressed

Even at this level the power creep is on, however we don't really care- we are not fighting each other or other PCs, we are DnDing and the Wiz is good enough to be useful (admittedly I've given him a masters wand to give push one with MM).

So yes there is power creep, but does it matter? Those that want to maximise will swap to latter classes, those that don't really care will stick with what they've got....same for every edition of DnD.

 

[Piratecat]

Even at this level the power creep is on, however we don't really care- we are not fighting each other or other PCs, we are DnDing and the Wiz is good enough to be useful (admittedly I've given him a masters wand to give push one with MM).

I did the same. It's a fun bit of control (although there was some confusion until we realized the push was optional.)

 

[phil500]

I took a look at the invoker and divine bolts hit me: this is what magic missile should have been. two hits of 1d6+mod damage to either one or 2 targets? thats better than twin strike.

maybe i misread divine bolts. if you choose one target, do you hit for 2d6+2(mod)?

twin strike says explicitly 1[w] per attack, wheras looks like divine bolt doesnt allow that.

 

[Larrin]

maybe i misread divine bolts. if you choose one target, do you hit for 2d6+2(mod)?

twin strike says explicitly 1[w] per attack, wheras looks like divine bolt doesnt allow that.

Exactly, if the power doesn't say specifically "two attacks" in the attacks line, you only get one attack per target. Divine bolts say nothing to this effect, thus you get one attack per target, be it one or two targets. So its only a two target twin strike, no 'double tap' on one target.

(note: sinces its not "two attacks" you also only roll damage once. Its basically like an area attack that doesn't require enemies to be close to eachother, just within 10 of you)

 

[robsenworldaccount]

Power Creep Yes; Wizard suck No

I get the feeling most people on these forums repeat what everyone else has said. That being understood, let me interject counter culture idea. Power Creep Yes; Wizard suck No.

The power creep can harm d&d. That is if you want a CR and not an easy win. This is only because the power creep isn't reflected in the monsters and all of the original phbI classes(yet).

Now, on to wizards. If you take Ray of Frost, or Scorching Burst, I doubt you will have as much fun as I do.

Cloud of Daggers and Thunderwave, the two of these at-wills provide near endless control possibilities. High wiz increases said threshold. The power in cloud of daggers come from its ability to be a target, rather than specifically a creature. The power of thunderwave is it's scaling. That and the virtue of being able to place them in posistion for a bad arse encounter power.

I won't attempt to discuss a plethora a situations of which the powers can be effectively combined, but I willl give and example of one that occurred las game.

- +
++++
0--

Legend:
+ <-- Enemy
- <-- Ally
0 <-- Caster

The Classic
Cloud of Daggers Big Bad Monster in the back row
Action Point
Thunderwave Big Bad Monsters Friends through Big Bad monsters clouded square.
Result: Feeling special and doing significant damage.



If you set it up correctly, these two powers can cause some VERY competitive damage. In addition, I have done more dmg in a single round w/ wiz than with any striker ( a duh for many of you).

In summation, Do we have a Power Creep Yes; Wizards suck No.

 

[robsenworldaccount]

Power Creep Yes; Wizard suck No

I get the feeling most people on these forums repeat what everyone else has said. That being understood, let me interject counter culture idea. Power Creep Yes; Wizard suck No.

The power creep can harm d&d. That is if you want a CR and not an easy win. This is only because the power creep isn't reflected in the monsters and all of the original phbI classes(yet).

Now, on to wizards. If you take Ray of Frost, or Scorching Burst, I doubt you will have as much fun as I do.

Cloud of Daggers and Thunderwave, the two of these at-wills provide near endless control possibilities. High wiz increases said threshold. The power in cloud of daggers come from its ability to be a target creatures in a square, rather than specifically having to connect with a creature. The power of thunderwave is it's scaling. That and the virtue of being able to place monsters where you will want them (in the radius of your next encounter power for ex) is not credited enough.

I won't attempt to discuss a plethora a situations of which the powers can be effectively combined, but I willl give and example of one that occurred last game.

- +
++++
0--

Legend:
+ <-- Enemy
- <-- Ally
0 <-- Caster

The Classic
Cloud of Daggers Big Bad Monster in the back row
Action Point
Thunderwave Big Bad Monsters Friends through Big Bad monsters clouded square.
Result: Feeling special and doing significant damage.



If you set it up correctly, these two powers can cause some VERY competitive damage. In addition, I have done more dmg in a single round w/ wiz than with any striker ( a duh for many of you). The downside is you need help from your party in order to set some of these things up(delays readying ect), or at the least to not blow them up.

In summation, Do we have a Power Creep Yes; Wizards suck No.

 

[keterys]

You can't push enemies through another enemy's square, so your trick doesn't work quite that way.

It works fine if you kill the CoD target or just push the CoD target out of the square first (so he doesn't take the damage, but oh well).

At any rate, other than the silly feats the classes seem fine at first glance. The invoker looks better designed than the wizard, but I wouldn't say more powerful. The shaman heals very different from a cleric and if you're looking for a good healer I'd turn to the cleric first - now if you want a pseudo defender option too, the shaman has some cool abilities through their spirit.

The druid is just really different.

 

[James McMurray]

I get the feeling most people on these forums repeat what everyone else has said.

I get the feeling most people on these forums repeat what everyone else has said.

While some just repeat themselves.