PHB 2 power creep

[Caliban]

Completely mistaken - at the beginning of every LFR mod is an entire section suggesting that you change the difficulty of the module to match your players (higher or lower). If they're steamrolling, increase away.

No, I'm not "completely mistaken". I've actually read that section, which it appears that you have not. At most, you can add a single creature or group of minions to make the encounter more difficult. (You can also be a giant jackass and rule against the players on anything that is even slightly ambigious, or try to enforce your own "house rules" in a LFR mod but I don't do that.)

As for the rest of your post. I was responding to the original poster, not you. I wasn't asking for (and did not want) your input. You telling that I'm wrong is not "meaningful evidence" as you call it. I've run and played dozens and dozens of modules since LFR came out, both before and after PHB2/Martial Powers. I have a dozen characters ranging from lvl 2 to (several at) lvl 9. I have a large basis of experience upon which my opinion has been formed (limited to the heroic tier, since the LFR campaign hasn't put out Paragon lvl modules yet).

Admin here. This post is a nifty example of how to get yourself suspended for rudeness. Think of it as an object lesson, and please avoid it in the future. ~ PCat

 

[Drowbane]

Power Creep has been a very real part of D&D for as long as I've known what to do with a 20-sided die.

Its the nature of the beast, no edition is going to eliminate it.

To sell new books you need bigger and better... history has shown that this usually manifests as boosts to combat power for the PCs.

 

[cdrcjsn]

Well, I too play a lot of LFR. I've got 10 characters now.

I also DM a lot. I DMed Escape from Sembia 12 times at one con almost a year ago and have pretty much DMed and played nonstop since.

I don't see the powercreep you're talking about.

Other than fixing controller at-wills, I just don't see it.

Cleric is still the best healer. Bear Shaman can come close if you're in a melee heavy party that likes to bunch up.

Basic fighter is still the stickiest/toughest defender there is.

There is more than enough power in the books before PHB2 came out that I'm not seeing the power creep. And yeah, I've played paragon level games (playtested the PHB even) and can say that in my experience, the PHB1 classes can still hold their own against the PHB2 classes.

It might just be that you're seeing more of the high-heroic level games now. Characters get more options as they level, so it may just be that rather than PHB2 presenting power options.

Cedric Atizado

 

[Caliban]

It might just be that you're seeing more of the high-heroic level games now. Characters get more options as they level, so it may just be that rather than PHB2 presenting power options.

Cedric Atizado

That's not it. I'm seeing brand new characters cakewalk mods that were at least somewhat challenging specifically due to options from Martial Powers (which increased the power of martial classes from PHB1) and PHB2.

And the power creep I'm talking about has nothing to do with who can heal the most, or who is the stickiest fighter, so bringing that up is irrelevent.

 

[Victim]

Most of the PHB 2 things seem okay - a few barbarian encounters seem rather problematic but those are the exception.

AV - definitely without the errata, and even with it - along with MP seem to offer far more power, ignoring the revised math feats. AV opened things up with new superior weapons, item bonuses to attacks, daamge and defenses, lots of useful powers and properties (often at low level - Bloodclaw and Jagged are only one level above normal mage), and tons of miscellaneous powers that are handy. Strikebacks are still encounter counterattacks.

MP has the Battlerager.

 

[Brig]

That's not it. I'm seeing brand new characters cakewalk mods that were at least somewhat challenging specifically due to options from Martial Powers (which increased the power of martial classes from PHB1) and PHB2.

And the power creep I'm talking about has nothing to do with who can heal the most, or who is the stickiest fighter, so bringing that up is irrelevent.

It's not the options provided in splat books it is how easy 1-4 LFR mods are. I have been through all of those mods and they are all cake walks (before MP & PHB2) except two and those can be with a balanced and tactical party. I believe most of the 4-7 mods are also on the easy side, but I have yet to run/playall of them yet. I here they get a little more challenging at 7-10.

 

[jasin]

Another example I've just noticed.

With PHB1, at Epic, the most competent person for restoring the dead to life is probably a cleric. Pay 50,000, spend 8 hours casting raise dead, and a dead ally returns to life, with a penalty that will go away in half a dozen encounters. Not too bad, really.

With PHB2, at Epic, the most competent person for restoring the dead to life is a shaman. Use your 22nd-level daily utility power, and everyone within 5 squares comes back to life, in a single standard action, without cost, without penalty.

 

[hong]

In practice, versatility creep is power creep, since it allows you a broader selection in which to find synergies with stuff you already have.

If versatility creep is power creep, then by definition putting out more splatbooks leads to power creep. And if so, then maybe we'd just better get used to it, because ain't no way that any RPG with continued support is going to stop putting out splatbooks.

 

[KarinsDad]

Basic fighter is still the stickiest/toughest defender there is.

I throw the BS card.

BattleRager Fighter is tougher than a basic Fighter any day of the week.

+1 to hit versus dozens of extra hit points per encounter?

No contest. Not even close.

 

[jasin]

If versatility creep is power creep, then by definition putting out more splatbooks leads to power creep. And if so, then maybe we'd just better get used to it, because ain't no way that any RPG with continued support is going to stop putting out splatbooks.

True, and we are used to it (and to a point, we like it).

However, there's still the question of just how much power creep is necessary, and along how many independent axes, as it were.

Putting out new warlock powers it a bit of power creep, and to be expected from any splatbook that deals with a subject related to warlocks.

Putting out a feat that lets warlocks get +1 to attacks is a bit more, and pushes up the baseline, not just some combos.

Putting out a class that's much like the warlock, but it only has a single attack stat is a bit more, and might make warlocks as a whole mostly obsolete.

Now, it is debatable whether having classes with two different attack stats was ever a good idea. I'm leaning towards no, since in practice, it seems to split the class into two effective subclasses, each with half the options.

So the move towards a single attack specifically is mostly a good thing, but I don't like the feeling I'm getting, that I've been sold a game that's still in development, and that the power creep we're seeing isn't WotC letting the baseline drift, but WotC trying to establish a baseline in the first place.