PHB Cleric = Unbalanced?

[Nightfall]

*always thought they should add in the RAW: Gods can do anything. So if the DM wants a god to intervene, they should do so!* But that's me.

By call down wrath of their gods I meant something like Flame Strike (it's half divine for a reason.) or call upon their gods "Divine Favor".

No they didn't but I was in a "I like to talk mode" so I mistook that part.

And Klaus,

Thanks for the support.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

And Klaus,

Thanks for the support.

Sorry, didn't mean for it to sound like I was singling you out. I wasn't trying to, just trying to clarify.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

But... fighters get all armor too. And fighters get a higher BAB and more feats to make them more useful in battle than clerics. Is there something I'm overlooking that makes the armor more important for clerics?

Fighter = High Bab + Armor + Feats + More Feats
Cleric = Av Bab + Armor (without casting penalty) + Feats + Turning + Complete Spell Lists

The ability to have Armor plus all their other goodies makes the Cleric a very powerful character to play. Other spell-casters are usually a little more restricted when it comes to personal defence options.

In terms of battle, wait till you get to higher levels and the party cleric lets some of their big bomb spells loose. Clerics are just plain mean.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Telsar]

I find them overpowered, but apparently for a different reason than most everyone else. For me, it's the domains that push them past the other classes. 2 domains is equivalent to three bonus feats at 1st level: two feats for each special ability granted (which in many cases just _is_ a feat), and one extra spell slot per level for the domain spells, which is really worth a lot more than one feat if you find "Extra Slot" from the Complete Arcane balanced. It might be more balancing when players pick a god and then choose 2 domains, but I've found many players do it in reverse, picking the deity that will give them the extra special abilities they want.

 

[CGoat]

Yeah wearing heavy armor is great....

For climbing... and touch attacks.... and swimming

20 or 15' of movement is great for outrunning the slowest guy when running from Big nasty monster that swallows whole....eerrrr

Skills... man they get mad skills... for... uuumm concentration.. maybe some knowledge religion... ok one more... heal or spellcraft.... whooops no more skills for swimming... climbing...

Clerics are balanced... Spontanous healing is a great concept that allows a cleric to take other spells instead of always forced to take healing spells. Its a perk to get someone to play the cleric. They do get some powerful spells.. but they are short duration.

I tell you what... we have a guy who always plays a cleric... If you watched him play you'll know that cleric's are broken. GM's are more often broken for allowing stuff without realizing the game impact. DOWN WITH BROKEN GM'S!!!!

 

[moritheil]

This is really explainable using the simplest logic.

Assertion 1: Clerics are 75% of fighters in terms of combat effectiveness, or at least, greater than 50% of fighters.
Assertion 2: Clerics can heal themselves fully at least once per day.

(75% * 2) > 1, or in any case, (50% * 2) = 1, and Clerics are more than half of fighters.

Therefore the cleric is going to be better at meleeing all day long, because he can heal. It's that simple.

Now, obviously, clerics can do a lot more than just heal, which makes them even better.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Domains are HUGE. Do not underestimate the Domain powers.

Take Magic, for instance. As part of their basic class ability, without a feat or any other adjustment, a Cleric can now use Wiz/Sorc magical devices ... huge. You can grab a whole slew of wands of the frontloaded 1st level spells like Ray of FEEB, True Strike, etc. You can grab a 5th level wand of MM for fire-and-forget lovin', or spend some big bucks on a wand of Fireball and laugh it up.

You can take the Fire domain and get access to quite a few very nice blasting spells OUTSIDE of your normal spell list ... pretty nice, if you ask me.

I used two non-core feats, which are actually pretty NICE and balanced feats, to make a totally unholy damage dealer with a single level of Barbarian, and Cleric levels with the Destruction and Strength domains. Destruction gives you a nice Smite power, and with the Smite power, you qualify for the Extra Smite feat, getting 2 more uses of that really nice Smite. Add in Extra Rage for more Rages per day and we had a frontline fighter with HUGE damage output and quite a bit of staying power.

I think the Domains and Domain Abilities are what takes Clerics from a strong class into the realms of Uber. Proper twinking with those Domains, you can make all kinds of great and powerful cleric builds. It's like getting two over-powered feats FOR FREE, really. Not to mention the sweet spell lists some of them come with.

Of course some of those Domains are stinkers ... Law/Chaos/Evil/Good are all pretty poor, IMHO. Travel gets good LATE in the game, when getting out of status effects can be crucial. The elemental Domains are a mixed lot ... most of them don't jazz my jones, with that natty "Turn/Rebuke Elementals", but Fire has a nice suite of spells added to it. The skill-based domains are also pretty bleh (Trickery comes to mind). Nothing like being able to spend your total lack of skill points on MORE skills.

--fje

 

[Nightfall]

Sorry, didn't mean for it to sound like I was singling you out. I wasn't trying to, just trying to clarify.

Do not be upset or unhappy. I was just thanking Klaus for adding to the arguement, not anything you posted.

 

[Mercule]

This is really explainable using the simplest logic.

Assertion 1: Clerics are 75% of fighters in terms of combat effectiveness, or at least, greater than 50% of fighters.
Assertion 2: Clerics can heal themselves fully at least once per day.

(75% * 2) > 1, or in any case, (50% * 2) = 1, and Clerics are more than half of fighters.

Therefore the cleric is going to be better at meleeing all day long, because he can heal. It's that simple.

Now, obviously, clerics can do a lot more than just heal, which makes them even better.

Not that I disagree with the notion that Clerics are potent, but a minor quibbling....

Clerics don't get the same hp and feats that a Fighter does. Clerics are, therefore, more 75% of a Warrior, not Fighter.

 

[Dimwhit]

Clerics can be dang tough, but I wouldn't call them unbalanced. For one, in the groups that I play with, they tend to be the least favorite class to play, so a little extra power isn't a bad thing.