PHB Cleric = Unbalanced?

[Mad Mac]

But I guess my larger point was, if you built a Cleric, and took domains like Good and Protection, and stayed away from "The top 10 list of Cleric spells everyone complains about" or whatever, would they still be overpowered? And what does that mean for the Cleric class?

It's not like I'd be heartbroken if the Cleric lost a good fortitude save and got a d6 hd or whatever...but wouldn't that just make people game the overpowered stuff even more? I'd like to see what a "normal" Cleric looked like before nerfing him further.

 

[mr_accipitres]

I'm playing a cleric of St. Cuthbert now and though I'm only 4th level, I'd like to echo what iwatt said:

IME, in games in which:

(1) Lot's of combats per day

(2) Not every encounter gives enough time for pre-buffing

(3) The cleric "must" heal somebody who's critically wounded

My DM usually only uses option 3 and it's not necessarily healing spells that need to be used, but making sure that there is a need to memorize spells other than buffs. This is probably easier to do in smaller groups or ones with only one cleric, though.

Yes, if I have time to prepare, I can outclass a fighter of equal level, for one fight a day. I must admit I took destruction and strength to maximize my usefulness in that one fight.

 

[argo]

If you simply crunch the numbers "smackdown style", then the Cleric is overpowered.

BUT....

If you factor in the assumption that that same cleric will be spending a significant ammount of his daily character resources (re: spells) on healing/buffing other people, then the class becomes balanced.

The cleric was balanced with the "walking band-aid" mode of gameplay in mind. If you have a cleric who casts nothing but Divine Power and then busts out the wand of CLW after the fight, then you can have a problem.

Later.

 

[iwatt]

My DM usually only uses option 3 and it's not necessarily healing spells that need to be used, but making sure that there is a need to memorize spells other than buffs.

Sure, If the cleric uses spell slots for Divination, and takes good emergency spells (freedom of movement, spell resistance, etc..) usable by more than themselves, it also aids the balance.

But I've played in games were there really was only one combat per day, and my Cleric of Tempus at level 10 owned the game, since we always pre-buffed.

 

[Saeviomagy]

A cleric is not broken under the following assumption:

He uses about half of his spells per day on healing his allies.

There, that's it. That's the balance for the cleric class, and that's the normal situation for a cleric in an average party. Even once you get to levels where between-battle hitpoint damage is mostly being taken care of with wands and the like, the cleric will still be coughing up restorations (especially since he's the only person who can).

Additionally, from observations through play, clerics are simply not the most powerful casters. They are certainly not on par with a well-played wizard in any situation. While there are the occasional spells that a wizard would really like to have on his list, there aren't that many.

In terms of balance issues, the only real problem is that some domains are da bomb, and others are a total waste of space. That's not a problem in terms of balance with other characters, mostly it's a balance problem between two clerics.

Oh, and that evil clerics channel inflict wounds spells instead of cures. Evil clerics with living allies are teh suxxor.

I think that perhaps the real problem is that your average high-level fighter is badly built, or only vaguely imagined as some guy that hits in melee for a bit of damage. A bad selection of feats and items makes for a bag of hitpoints and nothing else. A good selection can make for a really killer character that will outshine a cleric in a fight any day of the week. And yes, that does include when the cleric casts divine power. Even when he persists it.

 

[MerricB]

If the DM were as smart running his monsters as the PCs were at playing their characters, clerics wouldn't be a problem.

Persistent Divine Metamagic (ooh - look, 4 feats to get one spell lasting all day!) runs into terrible trouble as soon as there's one Dispel Magic being cast.

The cleric is absolutely terrible as a combatant in a ranged scenario. Almost all of their significant spells are range "Close". Heavy armour does not make for good Dex and ranged combat options.

If the DM constantly throws melee, non-magical, people against you, then the cleric can use their spells to counter that. That's what they're good at.

Cheers!

 

[FireLance]

Clerics are probably the most mechanically powerful class in the game. However, that doesn't mean that they are unbalanced. This is because what "balanced" means will vary from game to game, and DM to DM.

More importantly, I think balance also takes into account how fun the character is to play. Most of the cleric's abilities are healing, defensive and support in nature. And while some say that the best offense is a good defense, playing a support character just isn't as fun for most people as smiting evil, or sneak attacking, or raging, making a whirlwind attack, or blasting the opposition with fireballs. So, my guess is, the designers made the cleric a little more powerful to compensate.

 

[Crosswind]

Every argument out there for clerics being overpowered which I have heard involves the spell Divine Power. Most of them also involve Righteous Might. Without them, the cleric is a mediocre melee beast, and takes a good deal of buffing to get there.

It occurs to this player that perhaps the cleric may not be overpowered...just those spells?

-Cross

 

[Crothian]

No, they are not over powered at all.

 

[Nightfall]

Yeah cause if they are overpowered then so is Fireball, magic missile and a dozen others. It's just the way it works.