PHB Cleric = Unbalanced?

[Sarellion]

Wasn´t there a cleric spell that add +15 to a chosen skill for a short period?

 

[moritheil]

Not that I disagree with the notion that Clerics are potent, but a minor quibbling....

Clerics don't get the same hp and feats that a Fighter does. Clerics are, therefore, more 75% of a Warrior, not Fighter.

Hence my statement that if you don't buy that, you should buy that they are at least more than 50% of a fighter.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Not to add more, but Cleric is one of my fav classes.

The one group I could NOT KILL was made up almost entirely of multi-classed divine casters. It was pretty sicktacular.

The party rogue had a few levels of Cleric ... which she used to good effect Tumbling around and tapping with CLW wands. And self-buffing. And pretty much anything she wanted.

The major frontline fighter was a Barbarian/Cleric with Strength and Luck domains ... quite effective at self-buffing and bashing the snot out of things, and when he got tuckered out he'd step to the back and heal others.

The other major frontline fighter was a Barbarian/Druid ... who performed very nicely, with a slightly different suite of spells.

The only other character was a pure-class Wizard who pretty much just nuked everything then whined for somebody to heal him.

I've never seen so much Silence and Spiritual Weapon action in my life.

--fje

 

[sniffles]

I never really understand these claims of something being "broken" or "unbalanced". I guess I don't entirely comprehend what people mean by use of those terms. I've never seen anything I thought would make a character either unplayable or overly powerful when compared to other characters of the same level. Most examples I've seen given on this and other sites appear to be instances when it is the fault of either the player's play style or the GM's excessive leniency and/or misunderstanding of the rules.

I've played a couple of clerics, and I never felt that either of them was more powerful than any other PC in the party, or more difficult to play than any other character type. I'm not much for min-maxing, though, and my clerics were generally taken straight from the PHB with only a minor tweak or two from other sources.

I guess it's just all in how you play it.

 

[Mad Mac]

I don't think Clerics are inherently overpowered. I do think they have some overpowered options availible to them. The errata to divine power and righteous might were a step in the right direction, taking a lot of wind out of the sails of the buff-and-bash cleric, just as the 3.5 changes to Harm and Greater Magic Weapon helped reduce some issues.

Basically, there are spells and domains availible to Clerics that are too good. These should be nerfed or removed. Some of the splatbook feats are also a problem, just like persistant spell was stupidly good for Clerics.

Do that, and I don't think Clerics will be unbalanced.

 

[moritheil]

I don't think Clerics are inherently overpowered. I do think they have some overpowered options availible to them. The errata to divine power and righteous might were a step in the right direction, taking a lot of wind out of the sails of the buff-and-bash cleric, just as the 3.5 changes to Harm and Greater Magic Weapon helped reduce some issues.

Basically, there are spells and domains availible to Clerics that are too good. These should be nerfed or removed. Some of the splatbook feats are also a problem, just like persistant spell was stupidly good for Clerics.

Do that, and I don't think Clerics will be unbalanced.

Do you also houserule that lesser conjuration orbs are not available to mages?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Do you also houserule that lesser conjuration orbs are not available to mages?

Compared to things like Divine Metamagic (absolutely on my list of "Top 5 most blatantly overpowered feats in the game" if not the most), the lesser conjuration orbs are small potatoes. Now, admittedly, that says a whole lot more about the level of balance of Complete Divine than it does about the cleric.

 

[iwatt]

Clerics are balanced when they have to use up their versatile spell list in spontaneous healing, on more than 1 combat per day.

As has been proven time and time again, a melee cleric with the appropriate spells cast on himslef will out melee an equal level fighter.....for as long as those spells last. Those spells are Righteous Might and Divine Power.

If the cleric is outperforming the fighter in melee, or the wizard in spellcasting, it probably means he's getting the full use of his spellcasting.

IME, in games in which:

(1) Lot's of combats per day

(2) Not every encounter gives enough time for pre-buffing

(3) The cleric "must" heal somebody who's critically wounded


are true, the cleric is balanced. They're balanced when even 2 are true.

 

[moritheil]

Compared to things like Divine Metamagic (absolutely on my list of "Top 5 most blatantly overpowered feats in the game" if not the most), the lesser conjuration orbs are small potatoes. Now, admittedly, that says a whole lot more about the level of balance of Complete Divine than it does about the cleric.

Well, I'm just saying that if one is your concern, the other is likely to be as well.

I personally allow all cleric feats and PrCs, but that doesn't prevent people from dying due to a lack of clerics IMC.

 

[Mad Mac]

Eh? Don't have Complete Arcane. I might, if I used it and thought it was a problem. I think there is a valid arguement that Arcane nuking isn't what it used to be, and might even be underpowered. If you were of that persuasion, then improved damage spells like the Orb line might be appealing to you, though unbalanced with other spells, and that's understandable. I like Monks and Soulknives (both a tad weak) so I tend to get excited over new feats and such for these classes I might otherwise think were too strong.

I mean, if you wanted to, I suppose you could reduce Clerical class power, and then overpowered spells and such would be less of a problem. I just don't think that is so elegant a solution. I listened and participated in a lot of Cleric debates back in the day, for both 3.0 and 3.5, and they always boiled down to "If the Cleric takes these domains, this feat, and uses this spell, ect ect". And the same domains and spells and feats were mentioned, over and over again.

I admit I didn't sit down and come up with a comprehensive list of what I would have changed--I DM infrequently, and usually for D&D newbies, so balance isn't something that effects my games much. My interest in balancing the game is more...detached, I suppose.