PHB2 Classes simply better?

[Flipguarder]

2) Not sure I agree, whenever we've had a warlock in the group they have dealt significant damage while also remained the hardest to kill.

Just compare the dpr (damage per round) of a warlock to a sorcerer of the same level. Ask your warlock to build a sorcerer of a similar flavor and he may well decide to switch.

3) What is MAD? Even without know thign, I'm going to agree though

Mulitple abilities dependancy. It means being required to focus on too many abilities.

4) I found a melee ranger x-classed to fighter dished out a ton of hurt, especially with Storm Warden as the paragon path and scimitar dance. Would deal significant damage even if all attacks missed. I keep hearing about the ranged ranger dishing it out though even more, but I"m not sure how.....

It's not even that it dishes out more, but personally I think that archery rangers had their damage based on two weapon rangers who had their damage based on other melee attackers. When I think their damage should be based around sorcerers and warlocks (seemingly less than melee attackers from what i see) since they are ranged.

 

[Garthanos]

Avengers are divine. In theory, they get love in the same book as the paladins.

not necessarily the same kind of love.. give palidans more non charisma bound powers and a new marking power and it will suddenly seem un mad --- but rather more split build like the ranger.

 

[Spatula]

Erm... fighters? Technically they can mark with a ranged basic attack or a special-case like dragonborn breath weapons, but their mark does absolutely nothing besides the -2 if they aren't in melee range.

Which, as I said, is more than the warden can do.

 

[evilbob]

The power argument really does depend on what you're talking about, and how you define power. A battlerager fighter is easily the most powerful class in the game - so long as you define power as "the inability to ever die (ps. seriously, ever)." A ranger is the most powerful character in the game if power is defined as "the most single-target damage in a single round (assuming a few conditions and some help)." A wizard is the most powerful if you define power as "I can finish an entire encounter by myself with one daily (up to and including Orcus)." And the warden and avenger are each certainly incredible powerhouses, if power is defined as "massive damage potential combined with insanely high AC." In fact, I'd say any Str/Con based class is going to be a mega-powerhouse because it's so easy to grab Storm of Blades or any of the other game-altering barbarian encounter powers.

But are all of these classes better than a paladin? Oh god yes. Obscenely better. The poor paladin (and cleric) players are just holding out one more month for Divine Power in hopes that they'll suddenly have a massive power boost, too.

 

[Mallus]

Ah... another class balance thread, another round of doubleplusunlove for the paladin (curse you 4e for making me into a paladin apologist!).

My paladin currently does his mortal cavorting with an avenger and a sorcerer (after two people swapped PC's after the release of the PHBII). While both new classes have their share of shiny, new, interesting mechanics, of which I-the-player am a little jealous, they don't completely overshadow my lowly paladin.

In fact, I'm not sure they overshadow him at all. He does what he was built to do: take a beating and talk a great game. He dishes a fair amount of damage, does fantastically against undead, and even has a few interesting powers (like Wrath of the Gods).

Once he hits 11th level, he'll take Champion of Order and gain the ability to cripple a single powerful foe, like a good dragon-slayer wannabe should.

 

[Garthanos]

Ah... another class balance thread, another round of doubleplusunlove for the paladin (curse you 4e for making me into a paladin apologist!).

Anecdotal "but I don't feel wimpy" posts ignoring the points which have been made are probably not going to convince people, stand up and blast em dude... I love paladins myself. I miss the paladin's signature mount and think a Strength Wisdom Paladin represents some interesting concepts that has been well underfed so far (you couldn't play it in previous versions at all). I think Paladins and Clerics have some scary advantages if you have a campaign / game world featuring hosts of the undead. That said campaigns / game worlds featuring plagues of trolls probably leg up most arcane classes.

 

[Oren]

1: Cover is +2 to defenses against ranged and melee only. Not much of a consolation, but there you go.

Not true. First of all cover grants -2 penalty to all attack rolls. Yes, you can think of it as +2 to all defenses, but there might be a difference at times, so it's important to note the exact effect. More importantly, cover is not only against ranged and melee! It works against Area Attacks and Close Attacks as well. The photo on PHB page 281 specifically shows a goblin getting cover from a statue against an Area Attack.

I guess you got confused with concealment.

 

[Dr_Sage]

And Invoker?

Curious.... noone mentioned Invoker - Wizard.

Most of the wizard powers are ... lets say.... complicated to use. Specilly close blast ones that target all creatures.

If the wizard go ahead of the party, he is a prime target.

If he stays behind the melee line he cant effectivelly use half of his powers.

Invoker simple does not have this problem, considering all his "hit enemies" powers.

This simple difference is actually annoying in my opinion. Admittely I have never tested by myself, but I can see all the trouble my parties wizards have to hit with their close burst spells. Usually my brother is ganked after such attempts...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Wizard/Invoker is an obvious comparison. The Invorker has a couple of at-wills that are strictly better than similar wizard at-wills, but the Wizard's dailies are pretty impressive. The wizard's need to watch where he places his AEs is a downside, but it does make the class more interesting and challenging to play, and is compensated by some rather large AEs...

 

[Parlan]

I miss the paladin's signature mount

Wow, really? I played a 3.x pally for years and always thought the mount was a waste of a class feature. It was cool in one or two encounters, but otherwise it was basically never used.

I'm glad they got rid of that.

To fix the Pally, I think all they need to do is use Divine Power to add sufficient powers at each level so either pally build is viable. At the absolute bear minimum, there should be a Strengthadin and Chaladin available to choose from. Ideally, there'd be a couple of each and they'd be equally viable.