PHB2: Melee Weapon Mastery - am I missing something?

[Nifft]

Well, maybe not huge, but it's significant, and it does get sold short.

Weapon Focus is gold. It's a great feat.

Weapon Specialization is ... not. Power Attack + Weapon Focus already gives you a better (more flexible) way to get the same effect. Sure, they stack, but +2 damage is uninspiring.

For archers, Weapon Spec is actually the right power level -- because they get a LOT more attacks, so the extra damage adds up. For melee guys, Weapon Spec. is weak.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Legildur]

Basically, the Fighter's chosen niche -- whatever it may be -- is swiftly eroded by the Druid, Cleric and Wizard.

And yet I still prefer playing fighters....

Not that I am disagreeing with your points....

that last bit doesn't work. Even tho it's an unamed bonus, it doesn't stack if it comes from the same source (the MWM feat).

No, you don't get +4 to hit and +4 damage with a morning star if you have both MWM(Bludgeoning) and MWM (Piercing).

I'm not convinced. To me, it is the MWM (piercing) and MLW (bludgeoning) feats, therefore two sources. Besides, does it really matter when dealing with what is otherwise a suboptimal weapon? I'm yet to see a character to take Weapon Focus (Morningstar), let alone Weapon Specialisation (Morningstar).

 

[Nifft]

And yet I still prefer playing fighters....

Here, here! There's nothing wrong with playing a PC you enjoy.

Cheers, -- N

 

[geosapient]

The morningstar is an excellent weapon and the weapon I chose most often. It does decent damage and has the ability to overcome 2 different types of DR. It's the perfect weapon for dealing with undead and still effective against almost everything else. There's also a decent chance to find a magical one.

The only time that I didn't choose morningstar as my weapon of choice was when another person in the group did. Just so as to avoid conflicts later.

 

[Shazman]

It is a big boost for fighters, but it's prpobably too good for multiclass fighters. Making 8 levels of fighter a prereq can cure this if it's a problem for you.

 

[Korak]

What amuses me in general is the notion that there are all these straight class melee characters out there. In all my years playing 3.0 and 3.5, I have played one straight class melee... a 20th level barbarian joining an already in progress campaign about to hit epic. I did it for giggles, wondering if I could make it a competitive build with careful magic item and feat selection. I'm not sure if I have ever seen another straight class melee character over level 6. That includes playing with several home groups and at multiple large Living Greyhawk conventions. Who plays barbarian 12 or Fighter 9 or Ranger 14? Maybe those folks are out there and I just haven't met them, but even a cursory reading of the rules makes the benefits of heavy multiclassing evident in melee builds. Base attack stacks!

So... why all the comparisons of Fighter 20 vs Barbarian 20 vs Paladin 20? Compare the builds that people actually play.

In my experience, the mages have been about battlefield control, area magic for mook clearing, BBEG debuffing, and one shot/one kill save or dies. The sorcs and wizards could deal more damage in a round by hitting many enemies or by using crazy effects like TK'ing arrows prebuffed with GMW and several energy substituted flame arrows... but against single targets, melee builds have been extremely competitive, if not completely superior in raw damage dealing. As you move down towards 25pt buy and restrict material closer to phb only, the mages gain vs melee, but with just a few splatbooks and a few more points of point buy, the melee can keep up damage wise.

As for MWM... it makes me not feel like a sucker for building a melee character without 1 level of barbarian and extra rage. It makes the multiclass monks and paladins much more competitive. Then again, when I can build one with MWM, barb 1, and extra rage, then I can feel free to insert a level or two with no BAB... etc.

It is definitely a powerful feat, but I don't think it is even approaching "broken."

Weapon Focus on the other hand is far from a must take feat. I have built and seen many very capable melee builds that don't use weapon focus. It's good, but most of it's value comes from it's use as a pre-preq for better feats and certain prestige classes.

 

[messy]

For those who believe this feat is actually just the "right" amount of boost, and WF/WS/GWF/GWS are just underpowered: I have to say I disagree. Weapon Focus - a mere +1 to your attack - is a very plain, very uninspiring feat, it's true - and it may seem dinky next to some of the fluff that's been thrown out in recent supplements. But the truth is, +1 to your attack is HUGE. It really, really is HUGE. That's +1 to every attack you ever make, ever. That's +1 to disarms, sunders, full attacks, single attacks, cleaves, critical confirmations... Sure, +1 doesn't seem like much, but over the course of an encounter, or a level, or a campaign: THAT ADDS UP. And for a two-handed fighter with PA, that +1 to attack can also be a +2 to damage. +2 to damage on every hit, every cleave, doubled for every crit... Believe me, the numbers add up and they add up quickly. Weapon Focus is a no-brainer feat because it really is that good: +1 to every attack you ever make REALLY IS powerful. If you don't believe it, look to every other D&D mechanic: +1 to saves, +1 to AC, +1 to weapon attack/damage... All of these things are big because that's the point of D&D: a higher number is better. Even a higher number that's only higher by one is still higher, and it will always be better. This is why bless is such a great level 1 cleric spell and why bards are actually useful. +1 is GREAT!

i completely agree

messy

 

[Quartz]

Weapon Specialization is ... not. Power Attack + Weapon Focus already gives you a better (more flexible) way to get the same effect.

Only if you're using a 2H weapon. And, of course, at the level you get WS, you may not be able to use PA.

Sure, they stack, but +2 damage is uninspiring.

Not so uninspiring if you're using a light weapon - no PA allowed there unless you're a Monk using natural weapons.

And then you can look on WS as a gateway feat to MWM.

Consider a Ftr 4 / Mk 8 with WS and MWM (Bludgeoning) vs a Mk 12. The former has a BAB of +10 and on a flurry has three attacks for d10+4 (9.5); the latter has a BAB of +9 and has 4 attacks for 2d6 (7). It's better if you're a small monk. Not a great difference but the former character can put on his mithril breastplate when necessary and lay in with a mace. And note that most monk abilities can be used while armoured.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

A selfbuffed Cleric might be more powerful in direct combat, but keep in mind that most these buffs take a few rounds to activate, and don't last very long.
Who is holding of the attacks while the Cleric is busy buffing himself? Who ensures that no one attempts to get behind the melee line of defense and get to the wizard?

That's the Fighter. And that's also where all the special maneuvers come in. They don't work against all monsters (probably to few monsters at higher levels), but they are the best way to keep all the damage dealing of the NPCs and monsters down. Everybody else can only hope on disabling the foe with a spell that costs expendable resources, or dealing enough damage in a very short period of time.

Tripping a NPC seriously reduces his combat effectiveness and weakens his defense.
(Unfortunately, tripping has the counter-drawback, which is why you probably should use a trip weapon and quickdraw)
Grappling is death to most spellcasters, especially the arcane ones, provided you have at least one team mate that can damage him safely while you're grappling him. Against foes with multiple and/or powerful melee or ranged attacks, it is also pretty useful, even if you have no chance of dealing damage yourself.

While a Barbarian or Cleric might be able to use one of these tricks, it is hard for them to learn both of them.

 

[Nifft]

Only if you're using a 2H weapon. And, of course, at the level you get WS, you may not be able to use PA.

I don't understand this. Are you assuming someone would take Weapon Specialization before Power Attack? If so... well, they deserve what they get.

Not so uninspiring if you're using a light weapon - no PA allowed there unless you're a Monk using natural weapons.

True. No two-handed power attack with a light weapon. But also, you won't be doing nearly the damage of a two-handed power attacker. Not unless you have some sneak attack dice (or some other source of extra damage, like favored enemy).

Light weapons are similar to archery (which I did say benefits from WS). You potentially have many attacks, each dealing little damage, so even little boosts can add up.

And then you can look on WS as a gateway feat to MWM.

Like I said, MWM gives WS a reason to live. Without MWM, WS is weak (for most melee builds).

Cheers, -- N