PHBII: Retraining?

[MarkB]

In the real world, people plan to be management (by going for an MBA), or a Doctor, or a Lawyer, or whatever.

Sure, some people cannot see beyond flipping burgers at McDonald's, but most of my players are way beyond that stage both in real life, and in the game.

You have an unusual sense of disbelief if you cannot understand the concept of developing a career path, either in or outside of the game.

Adventuring is one of the most freeform, unpredictable lifestyles imaginable. The idea of some participants having general plans for themselves is reasonable, but the idea that the majority of such characters have a specific career path planned out for themselves in excruciating detail hurts my suspension of disbelief far worse than anything in the PHBII.

And even if you take it entirely OOC, planning out your character's career path literally months or years in advance, for a game, without even knowing what path the campaign will lead him on? Eugh. I've planned the odd career arc or two, but the idea of doing that for every character is just incredibly off-putting. I want to come into a game with my character's history and personality planned out, not his future.

 

[FireLance]

KarinsDad, thanks for your explanation. I think I can see where you're coming from even though I don't agree with it. I would just like to address just one point, to highlight how different our games are.

So, as DM, do you purposely add only those magical items to the game which your players have previously indicated that they want to see? Or, do you only do this for brand new PCs who get to "purchase" whatever items that they want when they create the character?

For my gaming group, we don't put magic items or treasure in the adventure. Every time the characters level up, the players simply choose whatever equipment they want, up to the standard wealth guidelines. For example, if he could afford it, a player could choose to exchange a +1 flaming sword for a +1 holy sword.

The thing about my group is that we take turns to play and DM. If it's player entitlement, we take turns to be entitled. If it makes DMing a chore, we take turns doing the chore (although I personally don't find it to be one). We're quite eager to give the new retraining rules a try because it will allow us to tweak our characters better as players, and as DMs, we don't really mind if the characters' abilities are different from one adventure to the next, as long as we know what they are and can plan the game accordingly. Since our levelling paradigm is one level after every adventure, the characters' abilities keep changing all the time, anyway.

Our gaming philosophy and style may not suit all groups, but it works for us.

 

[0-hr]

Do you NOT do this?
My current character is a Fighter/Warmage. I spent my extra human feats and my fighter feats to get rapid shot and to be able to use a Greatbow with some skill. If I go through the remaining 15 levels of my "life" as a character and the GM never changes any of the loot in the adventure to be an upgraded Greatbow then thats a load of hooey.
DS

That's really funny (in a scary kind of way) that you EXPECT the DM to put tailored magic items in your path. For me, that ranks right up there with the DM fudging rolls so the PCs always win. I know it happens in some games, but not in any that I would ever be a part of.

Of course, the point is moot now. The DM can put in whatever sort of bow he wants and you (as a player) can just swap out your feats to be specialized with it instead of a greatbow.

Ah, I remember the days when a fighter's Focus/Spec choice really mattered...


EDIT: And again, for everyone who feels the need to spout the tired "if you don't like it, don't use it"; please instead preach "if you don't like it and are the DM, then don't use it."

 

[ThirdWizard]

Ugh. Randomized treasure. I find it strange that randomized treasure would be important to anyone, since I find it to be so tiresome. But, then I'm used to more NPC enemies and it makes little sense in that context.

 

[Pielorinho]

Ah, I remember the days when a fighter's Focus/Spec choice really mattered...

Really? Huh. For me, ever since I started playing some 24 years ago, every single thing in the game has comprised trivial entertainment; none of it has ever really mattered .

Daniel

 

[Jedi_Solo]

[hijack]

That's really funny (in a scary kind of way) that you EXPECT the DM to put tailored magic items in your path. For me, that ranks right up there with the DM fudging rolls so the PCs always win. I know it happens in some games, but not in any that I would ever be a part of.

I guess the first question is do you want your players to be interested in the loot they find?

There gets to be a point where the PCs have so much cash, that unless the NPC spend almost all of their gp value on a single item, the party won't care and simply sell it anyway. But if he makes an NPC that uses the same weapon as your PC, and it has "cool" powers that yours doesn't have, would you be interested in it? Maybe not as a replacement but as a secondary or a back up weapon? (Such as if yours is a flaming sword and the NPC had a ice style sword.)

How is that different than saying "Player 1 hasn't had a session built around him in a while and I think he'd like a new weapon"?

I am in no way saying that every session should have an upgraded weapon or even that every session built around Player 1 should have his kind of weapon. That would lessen the 'cool' aspect of finding your new toy and go a long way to make finding a new weapon to accually be boring. Giving them their weapon of choice can easily be a reward (a story bonus if you will) for going through and advancing their indavidual plotline.

Putting new weapons/armors/toys into the game specifically for the players does two things: first it says that you, as the DM, like the character and want the character to stay; second it makes the character history more interesting by being able to say "I got this sword from the Red Dragon hoard" or that you "pulled this bow off the body of Kilaren the Thrice-Dead" or they "received this shield that has my family crest when I saved my sister from my murderous uncle".

[pulling jack back into the topic at hand kicking and screaming]

That said...

If all you do is random treasure the retraining may help keep the players interested in the loot. If no one has spent feats on using an axe there may now be a reason for them to be interested in the axe you rolled up.

Or taking it a step further, if you roll up an incredable double-bladed sword (or some other exotic weapon) that is better than anything the group already has, now there is a way for the players to actually want to keep it.

If a player has been using feats on the sword since the beginning there is no reason for him to drop the sword and pick up the axe. Maybe for special material puposes but he won't stop using the sword as his primary weapon and the axe will just be the silver weapon or the adamantine weapon - not the Chilled Dragon's Axe Deadly Iron. If, however, he could start training with the axe and become as good with the axe as he was with the sword without spending eight new level's worth of feats (just, say, four levels to replace them all but no new feat slots are spent) he might just be excited enough about the randomly rolled axe as he would be about a new sword. Otherwise the specacular roll for the powerful new axe will just be sold for gp and the weapon you yourself are excited about will never be used.

If anything, I think the retraining helps the "100% random loot" style more than it helps the "order a toy" style of play.

 

[XO]

Swap Anything

Having ogres as favored enemy really sucks when the campaign evolves towards a coastal underwater affair...

We progress slowly in one of my campaigns. We started playing (again) when 3e was young, and fewer options or extraneous material was around. Reconsidering has been applied to everything.... And the players, characters, foes or campaign are no worse for wear.

 

[Henry]

It suspends my disbelief when someone at one moment has the ability to do x, and then suddenly doesn't anymore. Yes, I know its a game. but paper and dice are only one part of the game. It's like suddenly everyone forgot the other part.

Alas, poor role-playing, I knew ye well. Now it is simply a game.

At various times in my life, I had the ability to speak, not fluently, but conversationally, Latin, German, and French. About 3 years outside of college, and they started to atrophy. Now, I know some grammar, and a few words, and can possibly pick up strands of basic meaning from simple sentences. Enough time, and I'll probably lose that, too.

If I stayed away from computers long enough, I'd lose info on Network engineering and administration first. (I've already had to re-read up on some of the old DOS exploits from just ten years ago). Enough time, and I'd probably lose all but the most basic windows skills. I don't have Alzheimers' -- our skills atrophy from lack of use. That's believable to me. It could be more than just losing skill ranks -- it could be loss of Skill Focus, for instance.

By the same token, I see no problem with someone losing their ability to fight ambidexterously well, or their reflexes atrophy to the point where Imp. Initiative would fail, or Alertness, or a number of things. Toughness could be simply from getting slightly older; to compensate, you've improved your reflexes, or you honed up on not getting hit (dodge). It's not unbelievable, and is in fact very plausible, to me at least.

 

[RustyHalo]

I haven't come across anyone who said that horse-drawn carts are the one true means of transport.

Have you never met an Amish?

 

[KarinsDad]

The general rule of thumb here is that new characters shouldn't outshine the existing ones, and I do what I can to stick to that.

Agreed.