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D&D 4E Piracy and 4e

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Imban

First Post
Emirikol said:
So, what are your thoughts on how fast 4e will be pirated? Overnight?

Jay H

Depending on how enthusiastic people are to buy and scan their books, anywhere from a few days to a few months if there aren't official PDF copies released, to less than an hour if there are. I'm expecting a lot of enthusiasm for 4e's corebooks, though, since it's a new release.

Without getting into the actual mechanics of PDF piracy, it's a matter of running each page of an official PDF (from, for example, DriveThruRPG) through a process which is individually fairly fast, but has to be run over 160-320 pages for each book.

For scanning of a traditional book, it's a matter of (optionally) unbinding the book so that it's instead a stack of looseleaf pages, then running each page through the scanner individually. Unbinding and scanning a 160-page RPG supplement printed in greyscale takes about two to three hours with a flatbed scanner - color pages scan slower than greyscale, and the 4e corebooks are fairly beefy, so it'd only be an overnight job if you had one person working on each book.

Of course, this requires people to buy and then destroy physical copies of the 4e corebooks in a time-consuming process simply out of the goodness (or badness, your choice in how you see it ;)) of their hearts.
 

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Hammerhead

Explorer
Imban said:
For scanning of a traditional book, it's a matter of (optionally) unbinding the book so that it's instead a stack of looseleaf pages, then running each page through the scanner individually. Unbinding and scanning a 160-page RPG supplement printed in greyscale takes about two to three hours with a flatbed scanner - color pages scan slower than greyscale, and the 4e corebooks are fairly beefy, so it'd only be an overnight job if you had one person working on each book.

Not necessarily. A friend of mine had this handheld gadget that was essentially the size of a ruler and could scan pages pretty quickly just by waving it across the page. No need to dismantle a book to get a good quality scan.
 

Imban

First Post
Hammerhead said:
Not necessarily. A friend of mine had this handheld gadget that was essentially the size of a ruler and could scan pages pretty quickly just by waving it across the page. No need to dismantle a book to get a good quality scan.

Your friend is a cheater. ;) I've seen a professional book-scanning tool that can scan a book without damaging it and, in fact, will flip the pages on its own. Sells for about 16 grand, sure, but that thing is sweet.

But yeah, I was talking about a standard flatbed scanner.
 

Westwind

First Post
While I think the "information as property" debate is a pretty interesting one on a philosophical level, I'd like to point out that piracy in the music and movie industry has cost friends of mine their jobs on the sales end of things. Now, piracy of RPGs obviously takes place on a smaller scale, but I'm betting the relative difference isn't as big as one might think. RPGers are generally pretty tech-savvy folks who would have the tools (both skillset-wise and hardware-wise) to create/find/use pirated materials in greater proportion to, say, music listeners and movie watchers, which covers almost everyone. To no one's shock, finding good statistics about illegal activities is tough, so that's just my best guesswork.

My beliefs about piracy are my beliefs, I won't bore people with them here. But don't kid yourself into thinking the only people who get hurt by piracy are the corporations that make the material in the fist place.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
But don't kid yourself into thinking the only people who get hurt by piracy are the corporations that make the material in the fist place.

Agreed 100%.

An unsigned band of my acquaintence lost money because pirates moved 67% more copies of their album than they did.

Ani DiFranco, everyone's indie darling, has gone on record that she's spending more money and time defending her own label from piracy than ever before.

And that doesn't even take into account the people who run the recording studios, sound engineers, artists who create the cover art, or even the truckers who deliver product to stores who get paid out of the profits of this or that given album.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
You are wrong. Give me the recipe but no capital or infrastructure. I can never make the business Guiness does.

No, I'm right, and the history of capitalist commerce has countless examples, of which Guiness is one. Guiness started with a recipe, not with capital or infrastructure. Once their recipe sold and they made some profits, growth in the form of increasing capital and expenditures on infrastructure followed.

Given a good recipe, you can find investors, a line of credit, or simply take a risk run up a load of personal debt*- just like many other companies have done- microbreweries included- and have a fine business.

* This is how Robert Townshend made his first movie, by taking out dozens of credit cards and running them up to their max, leaving him $100k's+ in debt...until his movie Hollywood Shuffle became a hit.
 

JohnRTroy

Adventurer
An unsigned band of my acquaintence lost money because pirates moved 67% more copies of their album than they did.

Ani DiFranco, everyone's indie darling, has gone on record that she's spending more money and time defending her own label from piracy than ever before.

And that doesn't even take into account the people who run the recording studios, sound engineers, artists who create the cover art, or even the truckers who deliver product to stores who get paid out of the profits of this or that given album.

There's a guy who created some great software called Nick Bradbury--he created HomeSite, TopStyle, and FeedDemon. He decided to do some research himself on it. He created a "warez" version of his own software that would ping a server secretly--and discovered more people were trying to use cracked copies than bought it legitimately. He made some interesting posts about this--keep in mind he would charge prices that were easilly affordable for software, like $40-80 dollars.

http://nick.typepad.com/blog/2004/01/on_piracy.html
http://nick.typepad.com/blog/2004/01/on_piracy_part_.html
http://nick.typepad.com/blog/2004/06/feeddemon_crack.html
http://nick.typepad.com/blog/2004/12/depressing_pira.html

Like I said, I have a feeling there will be more legislation to stop this. I can even see the "safe harbor" of ISPs being removed if the government gets convinced to legislate this, as unpalatable as it could be...I can't see Congress, the President, and the Courts just "giving up" on the concept of IP. I can see some reforms or loosening of the laws, but I can't see everything becoming public domain, nor can I see the Internet not being regulated more.

What really bugs me is that people seem to have less of an ethical and moral compass nowadays. They've taken some of the positive concepts of the free and open source movement and started attacking the concepts of IP in general and advocating its destruction. They try to attack their critics of this behavior in an effort to deflect any guilt or shame that they might feel. That really bothers me. I will admit to copying some software titles for my friends in the late eighties, justifying that most of us were "poor", but I kept having pangs of guilt and stopped after a few years.

I can only hope most of the vocal people on this point are young and will grow up. The original poster I was addressing said something like "if the restrict Internet access I will go to a place like China". When did China with its lack of a Bill of Rights become more preferable to the United States.

"Oh, forget Tianamen Square and Tibet, we have pirated goods and no respect for copyright--yay, I wanna live there!"
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
- I never asserted law or economics to be of divine origin.


What is their origin? Individual or public-common?

Law is based in accumulated experiences and decisions made by lawmakers in this and other countries. As such, it can be highly mutable.

Economics is a "soft" science based upon decades and decades of observation and collection of empirical data. As such, its rules apply equally to everyone.
The law is the law, and economics is economics. Neither distinguishes between the markets being analyzed.
As I'm sure you would agree upon reflection, this isn't actually true.

Au contraire, mon frere- I stand by that statement.

The laws of a particular type of IP apply equally to all forms of IP regardless of the industry involved (within a country- International law is a little different). Copyright law doesn't really care if the copyrighted material is a song, a book, or lines of code. Patent doesn't care if the invention is a new space-age material, a drug, or a new kind of hydrogen fuel cell. Trademark doesn't care if you're Coca-Cola or Vivid Video.

And economics doesn't care if you're talking about IP, personal property or real property.
For example, economics has the concept of "market failure" which applies to some markets (eg the market for public goods) but not others.

Market failure could occur with personal, real, or IP.
And not all countries' education systems charge tuition fees, in recognition of this fact, and many countries allow various sorts of public subsidies or support for research and development, also in recognition of this fact
.

The education may be free to the student, but there are still economic costs involved which must be borne by someone- again, the tuition, maintenance of physical plant, etc.- probably in the form of taxes.
I think many libertarian economists would in fact regard the monopolies that IP law grants (especially patent rights) as obstacles to production, not facilitators thereof.

Monopolies of many kinds are obstacles to production- that's why most countries have some kind of Anti-trust laws.

However, natural monopolies and those derived from IP are a different story. For one thing, IP monopolies are statutorily limited in duration.
But even innovation-oriented economics (eg Schumpeter) might not accept that IP rights of the modern sort are an essential underpinning thereto - there are many other factors that are necessary conditions of innovation, including the access of the entrepreneur to a wide range of knowledge.

If you don't reward free human beings for their efforts, they'll stop making those efforts.

If inventors & other IP creators aren't rewarded for their efforts by being allowed to profit from them, you'll see a marked downturn in innovation.
The law also distinguishes between markets. For example, TRIPS (the principal international legal agreement pertaining to IP rights) allows for compulsory licencing of patent rights in certain markets - typically the markets for public goods, such as health-related products - but not in others.

Have you read TRIPS?

http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/trips_e/t_agm3_e.htm#1

Most of what they're talking about wouldn't be patentable anyway.
"3. Members may also exclude from patentability:

(a) diagnostic, therapeutic and surgical methods for the treatment of humans or animals; "

etc. doesn't apply to medications/pharmaceuticals.

Surgical techniques aren't patentable- though some devices used in surgery are...and guess what? TRIPS doesn't affect the patentability of that either by member exclusion or mandatory licensing!

And even where TRIPS does allow someone to circumnavigate another nation's IP laws, it does so with a host of limitations- each case is considered individually on its merits, it must follow a failed negotiation, the use must be limited in duration and/or scope, can only be within the circumnavigator's country, can be terminated, etc.

Most importantly, the IP holder is still entitled to compensation, reduced though it may be.

So TRIPS still has a host of economic costs associated with it, and does not actually negate any IP monopoly. At best, it minimizes the effects of an IP monopoly in a limited arena of applications in a few countries. And because it does that, any competent economist will tell you that the IP holder will probably jack up the price of use of its IP to those who don't have a TRIPS exception, meaning that the IP holder makes the rest of the world subsidize the less fortunate.


As to whether or not IP rights are essential to the technological progress of civilisation...I think most economic historians would regard IP rights as only one of very many and complex factors that contributes to technological development, let alone economic development more generally.

I didn't say that IP rights are essential to technological progress in civilization, nor are they the sole cause of prosperity- I merely assert that modern IP laws accelerate the process, and I'm backed up by any empirical observations you'd care to examine.

The rate of change in technological change has increased faster in those countries that protect IP faster than in those that do not.

Those countries that protect IP are more prosperous and are home to more technological companies and a more diverse range of industries than those that do not.

Per capita incomes, GNP, etc- all follow the same trend. If your country protects IP, it does better.

And when you look at the resumes of individuals in so-called "Third World" or "emergent" nations who drive their countries' tech & IP based industries, you'll find that the vast majority spent a good amount of time in the graduate schools of developed nations that protect IP.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
What really bugs me is that people seem to have less of an ethical and moral compass nowadays.

I'm not so tech savvy that I can really say with any authority whether regulation of the Internet and digital piracy is financially feasible or even possible in the long run.

I'm more of the opinion that the only true solution to piracy will be in teaching a more solid ethical/moral base in future generations.

That said, I believe in the power of laws to help shape the ethical/moral discussion and to deter some people from acts contrary to most philosophies, so I have no problem in creating/enforcing laws to that end.
 

pemerton

Legend
JohnRTroy said:
What really bugs me is that people seem to have less of an ethical and moral compass nowadays.

<snip>

I can only hope most of the vocal people on this point are young and will grow up.
Not all critics of particular property or other regulatory regimes are necesarily wicked or immature. Sometimes they just think that something warrants criticism.
 

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