D&D 4E Piracy and 4e

[pemerton]

Copyright law doesn't really care if the copyrighted material is a song, a book, or lines of code.

I don't even really agree with this. For example (at least in Australia) the courts will take account of the character of a book - ficiton or non-fiction reportage - when determining what counts as a copyright violation.

And economics doesn't care if you're talking about IP, personal property or real property.

Initially you said that economics was indifferent to markets, not property types. Of course, some economic theories do distinguish between real property, goods, intangibles, labour and other inputs of production.

The education may be free to the student, but there are still economic costs involved which must be borne by someone- again, the tuition, maintenance of physical plant, etc.- probably in the form of taxes.

If your point is simply that production requires inputs, that is obvious. But taxation-funded public education shows that there are non-market, non-private-property-based ways of organising certain sectors of the economy.

However, natural monopolies and those derived from IP are a different story. For one thing, IP monopolies are statutorily limited in duration.

This doesn't seem to tell us whether or not they are obstacles to production. Natural monopolies, for example, are often highly regulated in order to prevent them becoming obstacles to efficient production (eg most countries' telecommunications or transport networks).

If you don't reward free human beings for their efforts, they'll stop making those efforts.

This is not true in all cases - a good deal of production in our economy (eg domestic production, volunteer firefighting, parents reading in public schools) is unpaid. The factors that underpin productive efforts are many and varied.

Have you read TRIPS?

Yes. The bit I was referring to, which you seem to have missed, is Article 31 ("Other Use Without Authorization of the Right Holder"), which includes the following provision:

This requirement may be waived by a Member in the case of a national emergency or other circumstances of extreme urgency or in cases of public non-commercial use. In situations of national emergency or other circumstances of extreme urgency . . .​

The issue of compulsory licencing for the public good is a complex issue under TRIPS that I don't think we need to go into here - I just put it forward as a counter-example to the thesis of "all IP, all the time" ie a it is a recognition that some goods can only be achieved in spite of, rather than by means of, IP laws.

Per capita incomes, GNP, etc- all follow the same trend. If your country protects IP, it does better.

The USA, which has perhaps the world's most robust IP laws, has lower life expectancies than most other OECD countries. And China, notorious for its poor enforcement of IP laws, has much better GDP, growth, life expectancy etc than those countries in Easteran and Southern Africa where strictly enforced IP laws constitute obstacles to the distribution of certain pharmaceuticals.

I think some of your claims are a little exaggerated.

 

[xechnao]

If you don't reward free human beings for their efforts, they'll stop making those efforts.

Applicative economy does not study humans but rather the interactive systems of humans with their specific surrounding environment. It is mostly an applicative engineering method. Humans as long as they are free humans they will never stop to make efforts. I guess you use the word "free" to indicate a certain state of culture or civilization. But this statement is erroneously narrow in regards to the nature of man. Animals are considered to lose their freedom when they are forced out of their natural habitat or ecosystem. By this definition of freedom, free humans will always make efforts, no matter what you are saying about rewards or whatever.

The rate of change in technological change has increased faster in those countries that protect IP faster than in those that do not.

Those countries that protect IP are more prosperous and are home to more technological companies and a more diverse range of industries than those that do not.

Per capita incomes, GNP, etc- all follow the same trend. If your country protects IP, it does better.

And when you look at the resumes of individuals in so-called "Third World" or "emergent" nations who drive their countries' tech & IP based industries, you'll find that the vast majority spent a good amount of time in the graduate schools of developed nations that protect IP.

Humanity's progress has nothing to do with IP. What about ancient greece? What about your language? What about agriculture?
IP is just one regulation of our current financial system.

 

[xechnao]

Given a good recipe, you can find investors, a line of credit, or simply take a risk run up a load of personal debt*- just like many other companies have done- microbreweries included- and have a fine business.

* This is how Robert Townshend made his first movie, by taking out dozens of credit cards and running them up to their max, leaving him $100k's+ in debt...until his movie Hollywood Shuffle became a hit.

Allrighty. Yes, this is very realistic. It reminds me of Cinderella story.

 

[pemerton]

Humanity's progress has nothing to do with IP. What about ancient greece? What about your language? What about agriculture?
IP is just one regulation of our current financial system.

"Nothing to do with" might be a little strong - under the current system of production, for example, it may well be that IP law plays an important role in motivating some innovations - but I agree that different systems of production in which IP plays no role are eminently conceivable (because we can see them existing in history).

 

[Makaze]

Humanity's progress has nothing to do with IP. What about ancient greece? What about your language? What about agriculture?
IP is just one regulation of our current financial system.

I don't think either I or DannyAlcatraz were arguing that IP rights are required for advancement. But merely that their presence on average tends to speed up the process. Innovation doesn't cease, it simply slows down in their absence once research costs rise.

 

[ThirdWizard]

IP highly encourages people not to innovate, though...

 

[Makaze]

IP highly encourages people not to innovate, though...

How so?

And even if we assume you're correct about no or low cost innovations (social) it's certainly not true for complex research based innovations (most modern science).

 

[xechnao]

I don't think either I or DannyAlcatraz were arguing that IP rights are required for advancement. But merely that their presence on average tends to speed up the process. Innovation doesn't cease, it simply slows down in their absence once research costs rise.

It depends what you mean "innovation". Today it just seems a point directing people's creativity to interact with our established consumerism society. If by "innovation" this is what you mean, then yes, you have a point.

 

[Siberys]

Whenever I download a pdf of a book, it's for two reasons. Either its out-of-print, or I intend on buying it for my collection, but want access to its rules immediately.

And, ultimately, I think this is why WotC isn't worried. We nerds are collectors. We have this bizarre impulse to OWN THE REAL THING. It's like proxies of real cards in tcgs. People do it all the time, but most who do make high-quality proxies (me included) fully intend to get their hands on the real deal, but are reather impatient.

I have only ever downloaded a book in anger once - when Dragonmarked referenced the Spell Compendium, and made no indication it was required for full use. I intend to buy it, being a completist, but that rankled, so in an illogical fit of spite resolved to get the book and not pay a cent. The 4e announcement changed my collector's mind, though. Damn, I hate being a completist.

 

[MichaelSomething]

If you want material for your D&D and you don't want to pay for it, why pirate it? There's dozens and dozens of homebrew classes, monsters, feats, etc. that people post on the internet for free. You can create a dozen campaigns from nothing but forum creations.