PJ's LotR: non-flame-based discussion on what bothered you about it

[Kid Charlemagne]

I had relatively few complaints - there are some things I didn't like, and some that I just merely would have liked to have seen done differently. Keep in mind I'd give the film a 8.5 of 10.

Complaints:
-The Pacing seemed rushed, amazingly enough for as long a film as it was. I hope the Extended DVD will rectify some of this.

-Galdriel's and Bilbo's transformations: Both are actually very true to the text, but I thought Galadriel's especially was overwrought.

-Arwen's acting (at times): Especially as she heals Frodo after the Fords. She seemed to react with more emotion than I'd expect considering she just met Frodo. A little over-acting.

-That damned ring keeps coming on and off that chain! Cut it out already!

Comments on things others have mentioned:

I don't mind Frodo making the decision to go to Moria, and I don't mind him solving the riddle. I see why PJ did it, and that's good enough for me.

As for the pillars in Moria, I'm guessing that a room like that would serve as a kind of common marketplace kind of setup. Semi-permanent structures within a large open space, for trade, etc. Not a great explanation, but it'll do for me.

 

[RatPunk]

I don't mind Frodo making the decision to go to Moria

It's not that I minded it so much as it just struck me as wrong for Gandalf to be the one who said it. I mean, he knows that something powerful lurks in Moria and that going there is just plain bad news. He would be the last person to force Frodo to make such an uninformed and spontaneous decision.

I would have found it much more to my liking (and it would have made more sense) if Boromir had suggested it.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Please remember that I gave FOTR a 10.

That means, I consider it among the 10 best films I've ever seen.
So the amount of criticism I have for FOTR is, compared to my praise, the equivalent of a small trash heap in some street, versus Mount Everest.

- - -

I cannot criticize the film for the omission of the Gift Giving Scene, because of Dr. Midnight's original parameters for this thread

I'll buy and watch the Extended Version of FOTR, and then I might have something to say concerning the Lothlorien Gift Giving Scene.

- - -

My thanks to Whiner Knight for his comments. Cheers!
I have a few comments to his comments.

POSTED

Maybe Peter Jackson was trying to show them as fairly naive? They are after all in the wide world for the first time. I'm sure they'll get more canny as the movies progress. Other than that, you're right, they should have had a cold camp if they know the Nazgul are after them.

Comment:

I would like to comment that Pippin comes off as rather dense. He doesn't learn from experience.
After Amon Sul, his blunder in Moria proves costly to everyone. His next blunder, to dash out of hiding in front of all those Uruk-Hai, proved very costly indeed - in the film, Pippin is really the one responsible for Boromir's death.
I have heard that, in TTT, the Uruk-Hai will be knocking sense into Peregrin Took. It is rather unfortunate - for him - that he has to learn sense in this hardest of ways.
No black humor and gentle roughness, for Pippin and Merry, out of Ugluk, Grishnakh, and Company (as per the book TTT.)
I shudder at Peter Jackson's Uruk-Hai. They will be far less gentle, nice, and forgiving than those in the book, methinks.

POSTED

Maybe Elrond trusted in his daughter's abilities. What help did she need? She got away, didn't she? And all she got was a cosmetic scratch on the cheek. Besides, if you cut out most of the Rivendell sequence, there's nothing to show her relationship with Aragorn -- and if she'd just shown up for that love scene, we'd all be wondering where she came from.

Comment:

I appreciate how uproarous the debate over Arwen has been, and am not trying to further the uproar here.
It is quite possible that Elrond and Arwen consider each other as - say - two brothers might see each other, who had been decades-long friends and buddies, and had both served in the army.
Not that Arwen is a male - she isn't. I merely make the analogy.
After all, she is 2,000 years old, and elves just think differently than men do, in Middle Earth (and anyone who is 2,000 years old or older is going to have new and different takes on everything ...)

And yeah, without Arwen coming in when she did, I suppose it might have seemed odd indeed, those scenes in Rivendell.


POSTED

Did Gandalf know there was a Balrog in Moria? IIRC he was unaware of it in the book. If he said something other in the movie, it escaped me. I can't remember him exclaiming, "It's the Balrog! I'd hoped to avoid its attentions."

Comment:

I still think Peter Jackson made a mistake here.
In the book, Gandalf did not know what the creature was until he got a good look at it in the Second Hall.
However, in the film Gandalf recognized it by it's light (reflected off the pillars) alone, and Saruman hinted that Gandalf knew exactly what lurked in Khazad-Dum.

Certainly, it was an evil choice for Frodo, as depicted in the film.
Either continue fighting the mountain (and magical winter storm, and magical avalanches, and magical rockfalls, and whatever else Saruman could think up), or go down into the bowels of Misty Mountains with the orcs and the balrog.
Nice choice!

However, Frodo still deserved to make it, informed of the danger.
Even if Gandalf did have to say, as they stood in the snow on Caradhras:
There's a creature in Moria capable of killing all the elves in Rivendell combined, and if it finds us, we're dead.
A balrog of Morgoth, once Sauron's Master, the Great Enemy!

As I said, Frodo had a nice choice to make ...


POSTED

BTW, Legolas starts shaking like a bunny in the book. Were any of them particularly scared in the movie? The Elfs have a name for the Balrog (of course) but I can't remember it.

Comment

He named it a Balrog of Morgoth, of all the Elf-Banes the most deadly.
If Legolas ever studied his history (and he had studied) he had good reason to be shaking like a bunny.
Legolas KNEW what a balrog could, and would, do to him and the others - and he knew flight was useless (ask Colonel Hardisson, who is a Tolkien expert, just what your chances are of outrunning a balrog on foot, or even on horseback, or perhaps even on eagleback, if it is truly determined to catch you.)
Had Gandalf not knocked the thing into a 5 mile deep abyss, they would all have been dead.
And, incredible as this may sound, if Gandalf had not fallen, that balrog would STILL have caught up with them, within only a day or two (it would have raced up out of the bowels of Middle Earth, back through Moria, through Dimril Dale in a flash, through Lothlorien like a destroying fire, and right into Caras Galadon. Whereupon Galadriel and Gandalf would have had to make another stand against it. Fortunately, Galadriel and Gandalf together could have killed it ...)


POSTED

I once saw an artist's impression of the king's hall from an ancient Middle Eastern palace (Abyssinian? Maybe Syrian?) and it was all columns. Huge things, a forest of them. I think such things are for show and to be impressive. Either that or the Dwarfs had a great big cavern that needed supports

Comment:

Thanks for the reference.
I believe the dwarves (Durin's Folk in this case) were quite capable of building that whole place just for show.
Durin's Folk were the most accomplished of the dwarves, I believe, and dwarves were the best in Middle Earth at stone quarrying, architecture, and engineering.
Durin the Deathless began construction of Khazad-Dum in the early days of the First Age. Long before the return of the Noldor from the West, probably long before the birth of Galadriel, and perhaps before the birth of Finarfin, her father.
Khazad-Dum was at least 8,000 years in the making.

POSTED

When did they ignore Legolas? Was this after Lorien? Please enlighten me.

Comment:

When they were encamped by the lake, above the Falls of Rauros, Legolas said (to paraphrase him: )
It is not the east bank that bothers me. There is something out there (gestures west.) A threat has been growing on my mind all day.

Aragorn and all the rest of them should have acted on that immediately (I should say, rather: react instantly.)
Legolas's premonitions were proven accurate when he said in Moria:

We cannot linger (indicating he felt a threat growing on his mind, I would guess.)

That danger came soon enough, once Pippin gave away the party's precise location.
The orcs must have been ready and waiting. They came almost instantly, like a pack of dogs long leashed, suddenly loosed, and charging with froth streaming from their mouths.
Legolas must have sensed the threat, which he could not name, while the leash was still in place.

 

[Fenros]

I gave Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring a score of 8.0 out of 10.

There are many things I can list and discuss concerning the things I like, but this is about the things we didn't like.

The Wizard Duel :I agree about the unimpressive duel between wizards. I'd personally like to have seen some more visible magic at play in that confrontation. However, I wonder, would showing more visible and flashy magic been in keeping with the characters and the LOTR setting?

Besides the bridge sequence where Gandalf confronts the Balrog, where else to we see him do battle magic? I know Saruman uses magic on Helm's Deep if I remember correctly. But my foggy memory doesn't remember Gandalf ever using magic for battle. Okay, I think in the third book he does something to the head honcho ringwraith so that his fear aura doesn't effect some people as much as it would normally. Other than that, I don't recall him ever using magic openly. Could someone more intimate with the books list the occasions?

Anyways, my point is, if the scene had flashier magic shooting about, would that ruin the continuity of the rest of the film? Wouldn't viewers be asking why Gandalf doesn't use his spells to attack hordes of orcs later?

The Gift Giving Scene: I agree. This scene should've stayed in. I'm sure we could trim seconds here and there through out the film and been able to salvage about 2 minutes.


The Uruk-Hai Homing Missile : This one is minor, but it bugged me. Saruman sends out Lurtz and da boyz to go after the fellowship. Then we see that Uruk-Hai hunting party running through the woods intercut with the fellowship travelling down the River Anduin (?). Then, as the fellowship rests, the orcs come upon them.

To many of my friends that haven't read the books, they felt as if the orcs made a straight line for them. How'd they know where the fellowship was? All Saruman knew was that they'd be on the other side of the Dwarf mine somewheres....but that's it really. There was no scenes of his birds maybe scouting or spotting the fellowship for the orcs or anything.

IIRC, the book I think handled it better. Which is odd for me to say. I felt the book had lots of clumsy parts, but as far as this is concerned, the book was better. In the book they ran into the orcs because lots of orcs were in the region patrolling. The orcs they ran into just happened to be one of many patrols they ran across. But in the movie, it just seemed that the hunting party knew exactly where to go. And man, do they travel fast! They depart Orthanc just slightly before the fellowship departs from Lothlorien and yet they get to that rest area along the river about the same time. Whew....that's some fast running!

Another gripe about the montage of the Uruk-Hai running and the fellowship rowing their boats is that I disliked the repetitive use of the helicopter swooping shot of the river over and over. I imagine them having originally done that whole sequence more elegantly but had to flush that version away because they needed to trim for time or something. So the version we see is this quick montage of cobbled together loose footage. Not making the scene as artful as it probably was originally planned. I sympathize with Jackson. Sometimes its real hard to avoid having that one crappy scene in a movie because you gotta do it to save another aspect of the movie.

Frodo's Uninformed Decision : I agree that Gandalf should've mentioned that the Dwarves unleashed something terrible before letting Frodo choose between the two routes.
In the movie, it is made to seem Gandalf does know of the Balrog. Saruman says so. Something like, "....you know what they unleashed......shadow and flame......"

But this is a really really minor flaw to me.

Goblins in Moria and how they Climb : I was once told by a LOTR expert the labels Goblins and Orcs are synonymous with each other. Well, I didn't know that and nothing in the movie tells you that either. Confusing the regular audience goer who is trying to keep track of all the monsters.

Also, the Moria Orcs/Goblins seem to be able to climb up walls and stuff. When the movie first came out one poster made a good observation by saying that this very ability that seems to be added in may put a monkey wrench in continuity later. Why would orcs at Helm's Deep need ladders to scale the walls if they can just climb up them? Unless someone in The Two Towers explains that only Moria Orcs can climb walls and no other orcs can. Or something like that.


Prancing Pony Song and Dance : I can imagine this one being a hard one for a director to decide upon. But to me, his final choice to not do the dance was okay by me. I undstood that it will take about another minute or so to develop the dance scene properly.

Plus as Holy Bovine had said:

Frodo singing and dancing in such an atmosphere would have seemed very out of place to me. Of course that brings up the question as to why the Prancing Pony was changed into this rougher setting. Again i feel this was necessary. I feel Jackson was trying to show the stark difference between the Shire and the human lands. The Shire always seems warm and inviting but Bree, dominated by humans (note the surprise of the doorman at seeing 4 hobbits at the main gates) is much more dangerous simply because humans are much more dangerous.

Frodo Solving The Riddle : I didn't mind this change either. Originally, Gandalf was over thinking it too and it was later that he got some clarity and caught himself for not seeing the obvious. The scene sort of still works out the same, instead it is Frodo who states the obvious. Because his head isn't so filled with tons of arcane lore or other tons of worldly knowledge to over complicate seeing what needs to be seen. That and the fact that he's a hobbit. A Baggins at that. As a storyteller, this gives him something to do rather than just tag along carrying the ring. This sets up to the audience that Frodo can see things clearly and innocently.

Gollum Knowing Bilbo's Name and the Shire: I agree that's odd too. The movie didn't show Bilbo having that face to face encounter with Gollum. So how would Gollum know Bilbo's name and that he came from the Shire? Well, I don't mind that bit of continuity error because I'm assuming it might be touched on later when Gollum is travelling with Frodo and Samwise and he retells how he met Bilbo. Maybe they'll do it that way.

 

[RatPunk]

I would like to comment that Pippin comes off as rather dense. He doesn't learn from experience.
After Amon Sul, his blunder in Moria proves costly to everyone. His next blunder, to dash out of hiding in front of all those Uruk-Hai, proved very costly indeed - in the film, Pippin is really the one responsible for Boromir's death.

I have to disagree here. Pippin didn't blunder and dash out of hiding. He and Merry intentionally jumped out to distract the Uruk-Hai from Frodo so Frodo could escape.

 

[Holy Bovine]

There was no scenes of his birds maybe scouting or spotting the fellowship for the orcs or anything.

Well, there was the scene of a flock of birds flying out of from the head of one of the two giant statues as the Fellowship passes by in their boats.

A case could be made that these were the same type birds that the Fellowship hid from earlier. Since nothing was mentioned about them this would all be guesswork however (a scene with Lurtz with one of those birds on his shoulder briefly would have been perfect)

 

[Dragonblade]

As far as flashy magic goes, I believe that in the books when Sauron's forces and the Nazgul on their flying beasts are assaulting the city of Gondor, Gandalf unleashes bolts of magical energy from his hands to drive off the Nazgul.

Furthermore, after falling into the pit with the Balrog, Gandalf and the demon engage in a titanic duel in which Gandalf barely survives but does destroy the Balrog!

Clinging to a thread, he climbs atop a rock outside Moria high in the mountains and lies there near death for several days recovering. It is at that time he undergoes the epiphany that transforms him from Gandalf the Grey into Gandalf the White. Claiming the mantle of guardian of Middle-Earth from Saruman the betrayer.

I hope that PJ puts those two scenes in the movie. I want to see Gandalf displayed in all his awesome glory as one of the most powerful beings on Middle-Earth sans Galadriel or Sauron.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

That does it.

Peter Jackson should have rewritten FOTR (and the subsequent films) as follows:

The hobbits are nice and peaceful folk
The hobbits celebrate Bilbo's birthday
Bilbo leaves the Ring to Frodo, and goes off to Rivendell
Gandalf finds Gollum, and finds out Sauron knows of the Shire.
Gandalf goes to Minas Tirith, and reads Isildur's scrolls
Gandalf returns to Bag End, and discovers Frodo's ring is the One Ring

Gandalf rides to Isengard.
The Great Hobbit Muster begins
Gandalf is betrayed by Saruman, but escapes
The Great Hobbit Muster ends
The Nine are chased out of the Shire by the hobbits

The White Council convenes
Saruman is thrown out
Frodo is welcomed in
Sam is welcomed in
Merry is welcomed in
In a fit of generosity, they admit Pippin

The White Council (Linden, Rivendell, Lothlorien, the Istari) admits Denethor of Gondor, Aragorn of the Rangers, Theoden of Rohan, Thranduil of Mirkwood, Dain of the Lonely Mountain, Brand of Dale, the leader of Lake-Town, the Beornings, and the Thain of the Shire, into the Council.
The White Council is suddenly joined by Treebeard, who is tired of Sauron making kindling and firewood out of his people.
Gwilhir, Lord of the Eagles, joins the White Council.
After a long debate, Barliman Butterbur is admitted to the White Council to represent Bree.

Frodo is declared High Commander of the White Alliance
Frodo leads the northern forces of the White Alliance south. Isengard is assaulted by Rohan, western Gondor, and the Ents. Dunland is told to surrender or face obliteration.
Isengard falls. Dunland surrenders.

Frodo and his forces obliterate Dul Gulder, and the monsters of Southern Mirkwood flee south and east.

Sauron, greatly alarmed that history is repeating itself, sends his main army out of the Morannon.
It is joined by all the Easterlings that can arrive in time.
The Morgul Host marches forth against Gondor.
As many of the Haradrim join them as possible.
The Corsairs of Umbar put out to sea.

Frodo and the main army of the White Alliance come down from the north against Sauron's great host of the Morannon.
The Ents circle around behind that host and send the Huorns in.
Sauron's Morannon host is obliterated.
Sauron's Morgul Host tries to take Osgiliath, but the Dead are defending it, and the Morgul Host is driven back to Morgul Vale.
The valiant armies of Gondor, with help from the Dead, wipe out the Corsairs.

Sauron sends his main reinforcing army out of the Morannon, while he demands his Easterlings threatening the Lonely Mountain come and help him. They comply.
Frodo and his allies decisively defeat Sauron's main host, with the help of the Huorns and the Dead, the Riders of Rohan, and the staunch men of Gondor.
The Easterling Army runs into a forest of Huorns, and is never seen again.

Frodo, never to do things half-witted, storms the Morannon and Udun, and makes them fortresses for Gondor. He then marches south along Mordor's western mountains, and takes Cirith Ungol.
Minas Morgul is now surrounded. Frodo sends the Dead in, along with volunteers, and they drive the enemy out of the cursed city. Those fleeing east are shot down or driven into Shelob's Lair. Those fleeing west are shot down or killed by the Dead.

Frodo and the main host assault Mount Doom, which Sauron has put most of his remaining forces around.
With the Dead, Huorns, Ents, Riders of Rohan, Legions of Gondor, elves, dwarves, and hobbits from the Shire, Frodo takes Mount Doom.

Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond all three grab Frodo by surprise, and hurl him into the Fire.
When Sam protests, they hurl him in also.

Galadriel declares herself High Queen of the Noldor, Elrond obliges her, and all of northwestern Middle Earth goes to them.
When the hobbits protest, they are granted an exemption - they can maintain Home Rule, so long as they answer to Caras Galadon.
To the dwarves go all of northeast Middle Earth, plus Moria (that balrog ran off when it saw the White Alliance coming by.) Dain is proclaimed High King of Wilderland.
When Thranduil objects to this, he is told to cooperate with the dwarves, or face the fate of Thingol. Thranduil decides that improved dwarven-elven relations wouldn't be such a bad idea ...
Gondor is given Rhun, Rohan, Edenwaith, Mordor, and all of Haradwaith. When Theoden objects, Gandalf and Aragorn give him control of Orthanc, and Theoden agrees to Gondor's overrule.
Denethor commits suicide, seeing that Gandalf has won the game, and the Stewards are thrown down.

In a move of unparalled generosity, Aragorn gives the orcs all of Mordor to live in - so long as they stay there and do not leave again (of course, he secretly breeds them, together with the Uruk-Hai, into a new and more dreadful army.)
Aragorn does NOT release the Dead. Since they spent 3,000 years in rebellion, they shall now spend 3,000 years serving Gondor.

Pippin and Merry return to the Shire, kick the Thain out on a pretext, and make themselves rulers of the Shire.
The Shire revolts against the elves.
Pippin subdues Elrond, and drives Arwen and Cirdan back.
Merry subdues Galadriel, and the elves flee the battlefield.
The Hobbit Host besieges and takes both the Grey Havens and Imladris.
The Hobbit Host, with the help of sympathetic Huorns and Ents (Pippin, Merry, and Treebeard are good friends, you see) assault and take Lothlorien.
The Hobbit Host demands the surrender of Thranduil. Thranduil decides hobbits would make better masters than dwarves (considering Bilbo's cleverness, he would know), and agrees.
The Shire is expanded to include all of Linden, Arnor, Forodwaith (where enterprising hobbits tame all the dragons), the Vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Eregion.

Gondor demands all of Arnor be returned to it, since Aragorn wants the Kingdom Reunited.
The Hobbits say no.
Gondor declares war.
Bilbo intercedes with Dain and Brand, and because of good memories (and the spirit of Thorin Oakenshield, who rises from the dead to speak for Bilbo) all the dwarves of Moria, Lonely Mountain, the Iron Hills, plus all the humans of Dale and Lake-Town, join the hobbits.
The Ents decide to join the hobbits.

Gondor's onslaught at Sarn Ford is wiped out, and even the Dead are driven back by the hobbits, Huorns, elves, and dwarves.
Gondor loses the Battle of Tharbad.
The Second Destruction of Isengard occurs, and Theoden (wisely) decides to revolt against Aragorn, and joins the hobbits.
Dunland also (wisely) joins the hobbits.

Pippin (Merry's too old for this kind of stuff, he says, and he stays behind to guard the prisoners, plus Elrond and Galadriel) invades Gondor proper.
The Easterlings and Haradrim revolt against Gondor, and join the hobbits.

Anorien falls to the hobbits.
The hobbits conquer the Halls of the Dead.
Aragorn fortifies Minas Tirith.

Pippin leads the assault on Minas Tirith. Minas Tirith Falls. Pippin executes Aragorn on the spot for bad-mouthing Frodo in the inn at Bree (Barliman Butterbur is a Witness to this badmouthing, and steps forward to speak against Aragorn.)
The rest of Gondor capitulates now that the capital city has fallen.

The Hobbits declare the whole of Middle Earth to be in the Shire.
The Ents and their Huorns are sent out to enforce this in all lands.
Hobbit lordlings are set into place in all lands, to keep an eye on their subjects.

All the armies of all the lands are disbanded.
All weapons are melted, or put into Michel Delvings.
All armor and shields are put into Mathoms.
It is decreed there shall be one (and only one) sheriff in each of the lands.

Pippin allows the orcs to leave Mordor, but those who will not behave are cast into the sea.
The orcs who will behave, are sent to brainwashing centers to learn hobbit behavior.

Peace comes to Middle Earth.
Gandalf, seeing his job is finished, heads over Sea.
Elrond and Galadriel, for reasons that should be painfully obvious, go with him (after Merry generously releases them from their captivity.)

Sam, who was not thrown into the Fire (he decided in the end that Frodo wasn't worth that much) settles down peacefully with Rosie.
Sam and Rosie marry.

And an end comes to our story.

 

[The Forsaken One]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

ROFL

LMAO

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

haaha that was great, power to the little people!

 

[Storm Raven]

As far as flashy magic goes, I believe that in the books when Sauron's forces and the Nazgul on their flying beasts are assaulting the city of Gondor, Gandalf unleashes bolts of magical energy from his hands to drive off the Nazgul.

No, he doesn't. You should reread the section concerning the Battle of Pelennor Field again.

Furthermore, after falling into the pit with the Balrog, Gandalf and the demon engage in a titanic duel in which Gandalf barely survives but does destroy the Balrog!

This is better handled off camera, there is almost no way to do it justice.

Clinging to a thread, he climbs atop a rock outside Moria high in the mountains and lies there near death for several days recovering. It is at that time he undergoes the epiphany that transforms him from Gandalf the Grey into Gandalf the White. Claiming the mantle of guardian of Middle-Earth from Saruman the betrayer.

(1) He was already on top of the mountains, he didn't need to climb any more.

(2) There was no epiphany. Gandalf the Grey died. He was returned by the power of the Valar as Gandalf the White.