Planescape, 4e, and the problem of worlds without history

[Taureth]

Nobody loves the internet more than me.

Yet, sometimes I think we gamers would be better off not -quite- so plugged in to each other!

Pre-WWW, people largely did what they wanted to in their little groups and didn't worry a copper piece about how some other group in Kalamazoo was doing it. I think searching for solidarity on these matters is itself erroneous. These are matters of opinion, taste and aesthetics and broad agreement just ain't gonna happen!

I feel one of the worst things 4e did (even over the paltry, lame, watered down alignment system that should have just been scrapped altogether) was attempt to establish a consistent world for everyone who plays the game. Planescape is an exception for me, in that I usally prefer home-brew settings, both as DM and player. World building has ever been a big part of the fun, for me. I realize they attempted to create a place that was "plug n play" in nature and that this will (in theory) enable D&D players to jump on line or go to a convention and all be (at least somewhat) on the same page.

Who cares. It's not as creative and therefore not as fun for me, period.

And, at the end of the day, who cares what the current release of the game is doing. Back in the day, my group ignored plenty of the god awful 2E stuff that was being churned out. I don't recall that being a problem, in any way.

As for Planescape, it was always more of a cult following than a mass appeal item anyway, and I think that will go on being the case. There are enough people that still love it that it will survive into the future, undoutedly.

Yes, things will surely change or be "officially" discarded given the passage of enough time. This is usually in the name of publishers wanting to move more product, and more power to'em. Any business, of course, seeks to be as prosperous as possible. If my paycheck and livelihood depended upon successfully breaking into certain gamer market segments such as WoW players, then I'd surely sell out and bastardize my favorite RPG system, too (sorry, brutal truth!). BUT, I'd also keep all of my old books and use those in my own games.

Anyway, not trying to interupt the wonderful debate in progress! I remain ever impressed with the number of thoughtful, creative, articulate and passionate people who participate in this wonderful hobby.

Party on!

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Whizbang, if I might offer some advice? Don't make very purposeful derogatory comments about people on this board and then, when asked to back them up, get all belligerent and accuse others of trying to fool you? It makes you sound like those guys who think the Earth is hollow and run by lizard people.

 

[Shemeska]

I know what you mean - that guy is a jerk! Not to mention I'm surprised he wasn't permanently banned years ago. He's so indoctrinated by this Great Wheel garbage I doubt he could even consider someone using another cosmology.

Oh absolutely!

Maybe I've just been blind, but I recall many threads of "I want to run some planar adventures, what do I need?" being answered with essential pdfs to buy and Great Wheel explanations. But I'd be surprised to see someone talking about their homebrew cosmology being told it is wrongbadfun and that they must buy those pdfs and use the Great Wheel or else they are doing it wrong.

This. I remember a lot of threads where people asked for resources, ideas, and inspiration for planar campaigns, and lots of folks -myself included- gave them lists of various Planescape books/pdfs when relevant to the particular sort of campaign they were trying to run. I can't think of a single instance when someone with a homebrew cosmology had anything try to force them into using the Great Wheel. And I've never seen any antipathy towards campaigns like started out using a cosmology distinct from the Wheel (like Eberron).

The only friction I recall was directed against instances where a campaign setting previously using the Great Wheel was retconned into something different (like FR), and in those cases I think the rancor was directed not at all against the idea of settings using different cosmologies, but against forced retcons. If I ran Eberron for instance, I wouldn't try to force fit it into using the Great Wheel - I'd use its own cosmology, and I think the retcon it appears to have looming on the horizon is a bad thing (and I'd say the same if that 4e cosmology retcon was going to place it into the Great Wheel cosmology).

As for alluded rage against anyone using something other than a canonical Planescape setup for a campaign's cosmology, well the Planescape mafia is going to have to come after me, because my home campaign is not in any way using the Wheel as written. I've got my own spin upon the original 2e material, and I happily included a number of the 3e changes to the setup. And of course, there's the Great Beyond for Paizo that's very much its own thing. Oh yes, I'm obviously demanding people use the Great Wheel as written in Planescape and never straying into any alternate cosmologies at all. Only a jerk would design something different for a new campaign setting. Obviously!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Whizbang, if I might offer some advice?

May I offer some advice? Butt out.

 

[DandD]

Whizbang Dustyboots, it might be better to rewrite your post to sound less snippy. The mods don't like reading something like that.
It would be bad that you might perhaps be kicked out of this thread (or getting a warning).

Just write that you're not interested in ProfessorCirno's comments, that is alright.

 

[Umbran]

I am going to offer some advice - everyone here be 100% nice and respectful. Get rude or snippy at your own risk.

 

[underthumb]

As for Planescape, it was always more of a cult following than a mass appeal item anyway, and I think that will go on being the case.

TSR had many product lines back in the day--do you know of any sales data on Planescape or qualitative statements on sales by TSR insiders? I don't mean this in a hostile way, I'm genuinely curious. While TSR failed as a business, it would be interesting to see how their various product lines performed against one another.

 

[Shemeska]

TSR had many product lines back in the day--do you know of any sales data on Planescape or qualitative statements on sales by TSR insiders? I don't mean this in a hostile way, I'm genuinely curious. While TSR failed as a business, it would be interesting to see how their various product lines performed against one another.

From what I've heard, the Planescape line sold rather well, but due to the larger number of colored inks used in its printing, each product sold was on a lower profit margin than other lines at the time. Of course I've never seen any kind of sales data from the time, just heard that anecdote bounced around.

 

[avin]

I got a question for people who like the Great Wheel and for people who like World Axis: it's just me of you guys also think this new reason for the Blood War is kinda silly?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I got a question for people who like the Great Wheel and for people who like World Axis: it's just me of you guys also think this new reason for the Blood War is kinda silly?

I think it's fine. The Blood War was always ambiguous and mysterious in origin. This explanation works for 4e's cosmology in a pretty epically nifty way (PC's can acidentally/intentionally repair the seed of evil!). I would prefer a little more ambiguity so that you could fit in your own ideas, but the 4e designers have an odd habit of needing some things very expressly spelled out ("infinite planes were confusing! Two-foot halflings were unrealistic!"), so I can forgive them that, and it works as AN explanation, even if it might not be THE explanation, depending on how much you like it.