[Planescape] Questions about Sigil

[Ripzerai]

A few misunderstandings above.

First of all, nowhere does it say that you can see Sigil from the Outlands. I like to think you can, since I like the paradox of "you can see the top, but you can also tell it's infinite just by looking at it - it's the idea of infinity itself that you're looking at." This isn't Zeno's paradox, it's true infinity, miles without limit, and yet there's a top! Suck on that, people who think the planes can be understood logically.

But none of that's official. Officially, there's no indication that Sigil's visible from anywhere but inside Sigil. Taking the Planescape books literally, the Spire just goes up and up and disappears in the blueness of the sky.


Secondly, Aoskar's location just prior to his death is unclear. There are some strong hints in some sources that he did indeed dwell physically within Sigil, inside what would become the Shattered Temple. There's a reference to the Lady casting Aoskar out of the Cage into the Astral Plane - whether this is meant literally, or merely means she cast out his faith is unclear. On the other hand, other sources are more reticent, careful to say only that his cult had become very powerful and people in Sigil committed the heresy of worshiping the Lady of Pain as Aoskar's aspect.

This is a fairly crucial point. If Aoskar did not dwell in Sigil, it means the Lady of Pain definitely has the power to affect things outside of the Cage. WE DON'T KNOW THAT THIS IS THE CASE. It's called the Cage for a reason, and one of those reasons may well be that the Lady of Pain is imprisoned there, powerless to affect anything outside the bars of her prison. If he did dwell in Sigil, it means that the Lady didn't always have a ban on powers entering the City of Doors, and that has major ramifications, too. It would mean that all the theories that the Lady of Pain kills those who worship her because if they did, she risks becoming a god and becoming banished herself are definitely false.

For these reasons, it's best things remain ambiguous. Thus far, they are.

 

[Ambrus]

Officially, there's no indication that Sigil's visible from anywhere but inside Sigil. Taking the Planescape books literally, the Spire just goes up and up and disappears in the blueness of the sky.

I'd beg to differ on that point. Many images from Planescape books depict the Spire as seen from the Outlands with a visible top and a torus shape floating above it. There's no reason to assume these images are intended to be figurative or abstract. To me at least, it seems rather counter-intuitive to assume that all these images are inaccurate in their depictions.

 

[Celebrim]

Didn't miss it, it's just not clear how that's reconciled with it being perceivable by beings whose vision does not extend to infinity. Is it basically some kind of optical illusion/spatial distortion effect where you can keep moving towards it forever but never seem to get any closer?

No, or rather, not necessarily. The other possibility is that the torus at the top of the spire is infinitely large. Thus, since it is also infinitely far away, regardless of the finite distance you approach it, the field of vision it fills is exactly the same.

Sigil itself occupies an infinitely distended finite region of the torus. Every time you take a step in Sigil, you move an infinite distance but you do not occupy the interveening space. Since you only percieve the finite quantums of space between point A and point B, it appears to you that there is only an ordinary distance between here and there.

This is also the reason that adjacency in Sigil is such a slippery concept. Since The Lady has built her city in an infinite space, it has infinite room to change and grow, and any part of the space can be made to be adjacent to any other part. Since the torus has infinite size, its also adjacent to everything else outside of it as well, which is why its such a great place to put gates. Since the average percentage of the space occupied by the city at any time is zero, and the average quantum of space which makes up the city is very small, this makes it a very hard place to get into except by the routes (what you might call wormholes) The Lady has chosen. What the Dabus are doing with all that work is going around maintaining and changing the routes between the infinitely distended packets of space. This is part of The Lady's layered defence against teleportation.

Much more than that is not known. It's possible that the city of Sigil occupies an infinite space, and that the Lady only allows a finite part of it to be occupied at once. All the discarded buildings are not infact discarded, they are just shunted into the not publically accessible part of the city. It's also likely that here are also the Lady's mazes.

 

[Piratecat]

In other words, it's a nifty plot device that let's the DM rearrange Sigil's architecture any time he feels like it. I love that kind of freedom.

 

[Ambrus]

Sigil itself occupies an infinitely distended finite region of the torus. Every time you take a step in Sigil, you move an infinite distance but you do not occupy the interveening space. Since you only percieve the finite quantums of space between point A and point B, it appears to you that there is only an ordinary distance between here and there.

You make my head hurt, but in a good way.

 

[Ripzerai]

I'd beg to differ on that point. Many images from Planescape books depict the Spire as seen from the Outlands with a visible top and a torus shape floating above it.

Hardly any of them do, actually; the majority of them show the Spire either with no top or with Sigil off in the margins, outside the frame of the picture proper. For example, in the illustration above, Sigil is seen in the white space outside where the blue sky ends.

The text never mentions Sigil being visible, ever; it simply says the Spire is infinite.

So yes, I assume that in the extremely rare cases where Sigil might be shown there, it may indeed be figurative or abstract.

There's actually a very good reason to assume that Sigil is not visible from the Outlands: the fact that the Outlands are not visible from Sigil.

 

[WayneLigon]

IThere's no reason to assume these images are intended to be figurative or abstract. To me at least, it seems rather counter-intuitive to assume that all these images are inaccurate in their depictions.

Or, more likely, someone didn't follow the art director's instructions and it either wasn't caught in time, was caught but there was no usable art to fit that section, or it was 4 pm on a Friday before a long weekend and they just said %&$ it.

 

[Ambrus]

Hardly any of them do, actually; the majority of them show the Spire either with no top or with Sigil off in the margins, outside the frame of the picture proper.

Can you point me to one? I can't call such an image to mind at the moment.

The text never mentions Sigil being visible, ever; it simply says the Spire is infinite.

It also never says that Sigil isn't visible atop the Spire. In the absence of any such info I'll trust that the art in the campaign setting is accurate.

Or, more likely, someone didn't follow the art director's instructions and it either wasn't caught in time, was caught but there was no usable art to fit that section, or it was 4 pm on a Friday before a long weekend and they just said %&$ it.

I have trouble imagining that DiTerlizzi would have thought to draw a donut atop the Spire without being told to do so by the Art Director. As to it possibly being a mistake, it certainly wouldn't take much effort to crop it out of the image above before going to print.

 

[Oryan77]

If Sigil can't be seen atop the Spire, the Spire is infinitely tall, and no one can see the Spire from Sigil, then why would it be historically written as proof that Sigil is in the center of the Outlands directly above the Spire? How would anyone know that?

Sigil shares absolutely none of the Outlands planar traits; yet it's supposed to be directly in the center of the plane above the Spire where magic & divine power isn't even supposed to be working. If you can't see Sigil from the Outlands, then maybe Sigil isn't really in the Outlands

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

2. It's not "reconciled" at all. The spire is indeed infinitely tall, and logic would dictate that the infinitely distant top could not be perceived by normal means, and yet everyone in the Outlands can see the top of the Spire as well as the round Torus shape floating above it (again, the fact that something can be located "above" infinity is a nonsensical contradiction) which they assume is the city of Sigil (there's actually no way to prove that the torus is indeed Sigil, but it seems like a safe bet. Trying to apply geometry (by measuring the distance to the base of the Spire and and the angle of ascent to the top also doesn't seem to work since the results always differ. It's a fact that doesn't make any sense, but that's the way it is. Thinking about it too hard is what drives the poor clueless barmy.

Climbing or flying towards the top is a futile effort since there's no way to reach it. It's said that a God once tried to climb the Spire but failed to reach the top. Some say he's still up there somewhere, endlessly climbing.

I actually may at least partially understand how this could work at least on a theoretical level, but I'm not sure how to describe it and it makes my head hurt. Still I guess I'll try

1.)breaking it down to two dimensions which makes it easier, a line is infinitely long by definition but that does not mean a line has no termini it simply means those termini are separated by an infinite number of intermediary points. Attempting to move along the points of the line is futile due to the infinite number of them, however transiting an infinite distance is possible if the need to travel the intermediary points is removed. Given that the endpoint exists and the concept of greater and lesser subsets of infinity or perhaps degrees of infinity is a better term, then the existence of one infinity does not preclude the existence of other infinities. Sigil exists above the endpoint of the infinitely long spire because it comprises its own infinite set which can be located essentially anywhere as long as it doesn't reference a finite point for location. Which is why jumpers are never seen or heard again. Through the distorting effect of the planar nature of the Outlands one can see the end of the spire and the torus of Sigil. However their locations are in fact non-locations in reference to one another. Sigil exists above the "top" of the spire but since the top of an infinite object is a non-dimensional reference they actually eixst as part of separate infinite domains. A jumper never falls down the spire, they fall out into the distinct infinity of Sigil which is not part of the spire's infinite set and thus can never leave Sigil's infinity to reach any other point, just stuck in non-space.