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D&D 5E Planescape to languish in purgatory?

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
I don’t believe that Eberron is incompatible with the Planescape universe. The planar portals represented by the moons could easily open onto their equivalents in the Planescape multiverse - and there are distinct equivalents.

Regarding Dark Sun, it is the total (almost) absence of access to the outer planes that make Darksun unique. If the planar conduits existed as normal then it wouldn’t be very interesting. Incidentally the inner planes very much do connect with Athas. So I don’t see how it can be irrelevant.

Ultimately the good news is that Planescape has become so subsumed into the core game that it is pretty much a given now. I don’t think the question will ever be will Planescape ever languish.

Its more a question of whether Sigil will be concentrated on, in the same way a desert themed adventure, or cosmic horror adventure might.

I’m always disappointed when people try to remove alignment from the planes though. Limbo, Hades, Elysium, Mechanus and all the permutations in between are both interesting and evocative.

eberron does not have "equivalent planes"
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is not
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Its planes are very different and It doesn't even have the same number of planes
Not only that, similar to the sealed sphere of athas (darksun) it has
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and just to underscore that, it also has
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Edit: There is a simple solution that lets you mix the two however. Sigil was made by the dragonmarked houses at some future point in time after starting to explore a bizarre new & disconnected set of planes they found. Thanks to the back & forth of time when crossing planes it could even be made in the distant past by the distant future. Like Arcane (whom the houses can also almost seamlessly fill the role of in secret) they are happy with you not knowing who made & pulls the strings behid those that seem to run it. Of course the critical difference there is that planescape undergoes minor changes that allow nearly everything about planescape other than who made sigil, if someone is pulling strings in sigil, & critically if there are one or more spheres not connected to the great wheel planes due to having some other set of planes to remain as is rather than forcing other settings to change their lore with it.
 
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TheSword

Legend
Supporter
eberron does not have "equivalent planes"
is not Its planes are very different and It doesn't even have the same number of planes
Not only that, similar to the sealed sphere of athas (darksun) it has
and just to underscore that, it also has
I’m very familiar with Eberron. However you are taking sections from Keith’s writing that expressly state the setting is flexible and using them to suggest that it is inflexible - I hope you can see the contradiction in that.

The planes are not named the same obviously - however Mabar has an obvious analogy with the negative energy plane, or possibly a section of Hades. Daanvi with the Seven Heavens. In the same way that Bane’s Barrens of Doom and Despair can be a layer of Archeron.

The Planescape planes are infinite and can easily hold regions that correspond to the planes of Eberron. As Keith says - if it exists there is space for it in Eberron. He wrote that the best part of twenty five years ago. I would go so far as to say it applies equally to the Planescape setting. It isn’t called the infinite multiverse for nothing. It’s also by nature theoretical and unknowable which is sometimes a problem for fans that want everything codifying and placed in boxes.
 
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dave2008

Legend
I’m very familiar with Eberron. However you are taking sections from Keith’s writing that expressly state the setting is flexible and using them to suggest that it is inflexible - I hope you can see the contradiction in that.

The planes are not named the same obviously - however Mabar has an obvious analogy with the negative energy plane, or possibly a section of Hades. Daanvi with the Seven Heavens. In the same way that Bane’s

The Planescape planes are infinite and can easily hold regions that correspond to the planes of Eberron. As Keith says - if it exists there is space for it in Eberron. He wrote that the best part of twenty five years ago. I would go so far as to say it applies equally to the Planescape setting.
I'm with you, I have no issue integrating the various D&D cosmologies into one and assuming they represent different ideas or viewpoints of a virtually incomprehensible whole. I don't think it impossible to have Eberron, Darksun, or MtG in a version of the great wheel or world axis or world tree or vice versa.
 

TheSword

Legend
Supporter
I'm with you, I have no issue integrating the various D&D cosmologies into one and assuming they represent different ideas or viewpoints of a virtually incomprehensible whole. I don't think it impossible to have Eberron, Darksun, or MtG in a version of the great wheel or world axis or world tree or vice versa.
Precisely - it doesn’t matter what shape people call it, that will depend exactly on how their society explains something that is both infinite and by extension undefinable. Some civilizations may describe a tree, some a wheel, some a peach with the planes within like pitts. The great wheel isn’t actually arranged in wheel - it can’t be because the planes are infinite in all directions and you don’t just walk from one to another - portals and conduits are needed. The wheel is just a way of organizing them by alignment for mortal minds.

I remember a great illustration for darksun in one of the products (I forget which one) that gave three conflicting theories of how athas was connected to the multiverse. @tetrasodium it was absolutely connected though - through the Elemental planes. It just lacked the Outer planar conduits existing for other material planes. Even that had work around.
City by the Silt Sea contained an artifact that allowed Dregloth to overcome these restrictions
 

Fear, Horror, Madness Checks, Power Checks, Darklord powers, changes to nearly every spell arcane and divine, changes to psionic powers, changes to character class abiltiies, changes to available character races, technology differences (firearms are much more common in Ravenloft) changes to languages (there is no "Common"), changes to magic items.

I could go on. Dragonlance is much more vanilla D&D than Ravenloft ever was.
I totally forgot that there was no common in Ravenloft. I tried using this for all of 5 minutes before I said screw this, I'm playing D&D and not Charades. It was cool concept for flavor but a PITA to execute.

My initial post was judging by the praise Ive read on CoS that WotC got sometings right to capture the flavor and mood of Ravenloft, apparently that wasnt the case. I didnt play it. Also I was figuring that as they already did a "Ravenloft" book that they wouldnt do another before getting to the other settings thats why I included Dragonlance.

The 5e "ravenloft" depected in CoS is extremely faerunized.
Well thats too bad. Unfortunately with any future 5E adaptation of any previous edition settings somethings will change, somethings will be omitted completely, others will be left to DM purvey and in the end, it will only resemble the old setting. Without doing a proper make-over which in most cases a single hardbound will not be sufficient, this is probably the reality of it.
 

MarkB

Legend
I'm also honestly not sure if I would even use D&D if I wanted to run Planescape, as there are probably TTRPGs out there that could better engage the themes, aesthetics, and style of play that Planescape tries to cultivate. (This is also one of my criticisms about a lot of 2E settings: e.g., Dark Sun, Birthright, etc.) I would still be interested in seeing Planescape/Sigil receive a proper update for D&D.
I could actually imagine Sigil working really well as a Blades in the Dark setting. That system is all about various competing guilds and organisations, and its aesthetic and sense of humour would align reasonably well with those of Sigil.
 


TheSword

Legend
Supporter
I think ‘extremely faerunised’ is a massive exaggeration and doesn’t even make much sense. The NPCs are tormented and dark and quite out of place in the Faerun setting. The dark powers don’t match the originals and yet are a good approximation, quite cleverly including elements of 4e that weren’t about the first time round. Ravenloft is more about the stories that you tell and the style of fiction that some mechanical aspect that pushed Ravenloft buttons.

The mechanics tetrasodium lists as part of Ravenloft are either present in some form or irrelevant.

Fear and Sanity are in the core DMG - add them if you like. As are firearms.

Darklord powers, Dark Powers checks are 95% NPC related and are folded into NPC stat blocks. No idea why you’d need a separate set of rules for this... it isn’t the 5e way.

Changes to spells are listed in Curse of Strahd and have always been largely cosmetic. These are good examples For adapting other spells.

Curse of Strahd is Ravenloft in 5e. Of course it will have some things in common with the core 5e setting.
 

GreyLord

Hero
Yeah, we’ll see another icewind dale game before another torment game, based on sales at least.
Late to this ballgame and still on page 1, but we already saw another Torment game recently...didn't we.

It was not a direct sequel or in the same universe, but more of a spiritual successor.

It was called. Torment: Tides of Numenera, of course, unfortunately, it supposedly did not sell all that well.

However, it did have a successful kickstarter when it was in creation and in theory another kickstarter could fund another one if the creators wished to make a sequel.
 


Aldarc

Legend
Really? Wow. Kinda relieved I missed that, only because I've already backed too many Kickstarters recently, and really need to get round to actually using some of them before I try any more.

I'll definitely keep in mind that this one is out there, though.
I only caught it because it showed up here in one those great Industry/Kickstarter round-up articles from @Egg Embry.
 

TheSword

Legend
Supporter
Late to this ballgame and still on page 1, but we already saw another Torment game recently...didn't we.

It was not a direct sequel or in the same universe, but more of a spiritual successor.

It was called. Torment: Tides of Numenera, of course, unfortunately, it supposedly did not sell all that well.

However, it did have a successful kickstarter when it was in creation and in theory another kickstarter could fund another one if the creators wished to make a sequel.
Torment was a mediocre, clunky, not really d&d, game system that had an amazing, deep, thought provoking, profound and clever story wrapped around it. You could move the Torment story to any edition and any engine and it would be amazing. It was always going to be a hard act to follow. In the same way that Siege of Dragonspear never recaptured the story of the first two BG’s
 

MarkB

Legend
I only caught it because it showed up here in one those great Industry/Kickstarter round-up articles from @Egg Embry.
Yeah, those are seriously potentially bad for my wallet. I've backed enough projects just from listening to @Morrus's podcast.

Anyway, the BitD project I'm really hoping for is a Discworld adaptation set in Ankh-Morpork, but I don't think I'll be lucky enough to see that one anytime soon.
 

It doesn't matter - my one campaign makes heavy use of third party products and homebrew. It's not about it only being WotC content (unless I'm running or playing AL, naturally). I adore the Tome of Beasts series, for example. But the difference between that and DMs Guild is that if I buy a WotC, Nord Games, or Kobold Press product, I've a reasonable baseline assumption of quality control and balance. With DMs Guild, I do not, and I'm not of a mind to spend my time hunting through it for the good stuff. Like I said, there's so much of it.

This confuses me a little Ralif, what does it matter if your whole campaign is WotC cannon or not? Even the game designers expect you to homebrew the game a little, they make that plain in their products, and frankly I would do it if they liked it or not. The products are thiers, but the game is mine. What benefits to you get out of refusing anything but straight WotC content? Or am I reading too much into what you said?
 

Eltab

Is this a moon, or is it a space station?
I would like to see 5e Dark Sun. However DS is a setting where tyranny, slavery, exploitation, grinding poverty, and similar Evils are the characters' day-to-day reality - and the newer / younger fanbase may not react well to that. (See for instance this summer's discussion of Always-Evil Orcs.) A setting without the Evils to strive against ... can still be a post-apocalyptic planet, but it will not feel like Dark Sun.
 

I would like to see 5e Dark Sun. However DS is a setting where tyranny, slavery, exploitation, grinding poverty, and similar Evils are the characters' day-to-day reality - and the newer / younger fanbase may not react well to that. (See for instance this summer's discussion of Always-Evil Orcs.) A setting without the Evils to strive against ... can still be a post-apocalyptic planet, but it will not feel like Dark Sun.
Hey, new player here. The reason I dislike always-evil-orcs does not effect my attitude towards Dark Sun. I dislike always-evil-orcs due to it being completely and entirely setting dependent, while Dark Sun is a setting. What happens on Dark Sun doesn't effect my table, but having orcs always be evil and/or stupid did.

I personally like Dark Sun, and don't think that the slavery, tyranny, and other difficult and wrong aspects of Dark Sun are an issue. It makes sense for a world where resources are scarce for warlords and slavery to emerge. If people don't like those aspects of the setting, they can always just not buy the book. It's different when the aspects of a setting are forced upon the core and base rules that I (and most other younger players) have an issue. I'm sure people will complain about those aspects if/when a Dark Sun book is announced, but these two scenarios aren't equivalents. Dark Sun doesn't effect your game and table unless you play there, but the rules for a race do.

(I cannot speak for the majority of new players, but if they approach this matter similarly to how I do, the backlash against a Dark Sun book should be minimal enough to not change anything overly significant about the setting.)
 

twofalls

DM Beadle
I personally like Dark Sun, and don't think that the slavery, tyranny, and other difficult and wrong aspects of Dark Sun are an issue. It makes sense for a world where resources are scarce for warlords and slavery to emerge. If people don't like those aspects of the setting, they can always just not buy the book. It's different when the aspects of a setting are forced upon the core and base rules that I (and most other younger players) have an issue. I'm sure people will complain about those aspects if/when a Dark Sun book is announced, but these two scenarios aren't equivalents. Dark Sun doesn't effect your game and table unless you play there, but the rules for a race do.

Hey, new player here. The reason I dislike always-evil-orcs does not effect my attitude towards Dark Sun. I dislike always-evil-orcs due to it being completely and entirely setting dependent, while Dark Sun is a setting. What happens on Dark Sun doesn't effect my table, but having orcs always be evil and/or stupid did.

I personally like Dark Sun, and don't think that the slavery, tyranny, and other difficult and wrong aspects of Dark Sun are an issue. It makes sense for a world where resources are scarce for warlords and slavery to emerge. If people don't like those aspects of the setting, they can always just not buy the book. It's different when the aspects of a setting are forced upon the core and base rules that I (and most other younger players) have an issue. I'm sure people will complain about those aspects if/when a Dark Sun book is announced, but these two scenarios aren't equivalents. Dark Sun doesn't effect your game and table unless you play there, but the rules for a race do.

(I cannot speak for the majority of new players, but if they approach this matter similarly to how I do, the backlash against a Dark Sun book should be minimal enough to not change anything overly significant about the setting.)
This strikes me as a false equivalency. The core rule books are the core books and are needed to play, beyond those you don't like the FR setting you can also choose not to buy the books just as easily as you can chose not to buy any other setting (I can offer myself as an example, I will not buy anymore of their books). However for the youth in the game, it doesn't matter because that is the demographic the company is aiming to please.
 

TheSword

Legend
Supporter
This strikes me as a false equivalency. The core rule books are the core books and are needed to play, beyond those you don't like the FR setting you can also choose not to buy the books just as easily as you can chose not to buy any other setting (I can offer myself as an example, I will not buy anymore of their books). However for the youth in the game, it doesn't matter because that is the demographic the company is aiming to please.

Unfortunately though, if you won’t buy any more books, why on earth would you expect them to produce a book to support an out of print setting?
 

twofalls

DM Beadle
Unfortunately though, if you won’t buy any more books, why on earth would you expect them to produce a book to support an out of print setting?
The thread became long, so I don't blame you if you missed it earlier because I did address this. The OP was an impulse, and as I thought about it I also realized this and pointed it out, however the thread had taken on a life of its own by then.
 

TheSword

Legend
Supporter
The thread became long, so I don't blame you if you missed it earlier because I did address this. The OP was an impulse, and as I thought about it I also realized this and pointed it out, however the thread had taken on a life of its own by then.
Ahh, well maybe if they did release a Planescape campaign that was minable for nuggets for your own adventures maybe it might tempt you.
 

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