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D&D 5E Planescape to languish in purgatory?

dave2008

Legend
Hey, new player here. The reason I dislike always-evil-orcs does not effect my attitude towards Dark Sun. I dislike always-evil-orcs due to it being completely and entirely setting dependent, while Dark Sun is a setting. What happens on Dark Sun doesn't effect my table, but having orcs always be evil and/or stupid did.
While I agree with the concept of it being setting dependent. The fact that D&D orcs are "evil" in the MM doesn't need to affect your table. I've used ambiguously aligned orcs and goblins since 1e and the orcs in the book always said "evil." It only affects your table if you let it, IMO.
 

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TheSword

Legend
Supporter
Woah... this is an argument that has been beaten to death, resurrected, rode into the dust and then beaten until collapse. Do we really want to bring it up again here!
 



twofalls

DM Beadle
Ahh, well maybe if they did release a Planescape campaign that was minable for nuggets for your own adventures maybe it might tempt you.
Maybe, the things that I object to have to do with the company bowing before the woke culture. I realize that the vast majority of younger folks will think me wrong to feel that way, however I'm a very conservative fellow and I recognize that the conservative mindset is in the minority of the country right now, so things like this will happen. I have so much D&D material at present that I couldn't possibly use it all before my time on this Earth ends, so when is enough enough anyhow? The world is for the young.
 

twofalls

DM Beadle
Regarding the topic being old and well worn, the very first line I wrote in the OP asked if anyone had links to a previous discussion to avoid this being a trolling post. The fact that it has turned into a 9 page thread suggests to me that yeah, people do want to talk about it, but I think you were mostly just joking. ;)

I've been on enworld for a long time, but haven't really posted a lot. Being in isolation has started to change that, so there are a lot of topics that I might bring up that are new to me, but very old hat to everyone else.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I think some of the old planescape fans annoyed people when they insisted planescape lore took precedence over say FR lore or whatever.

Also shoehorned things like Darksun into the great wheel contradicting Darksun sources.

It was more due to TSR letting freelancers do whatever.

I think they well mostly fold PS into generic 5E planar lore. The lingo was bad enough back in the 90s. Berk.
 

TheSword

Legend
Supporter
Regarding the topic being old and well worn, the very first line I wrote in the OP asked if anyone had links to a previous discussion to avoid this being a trolling post. The fact that it has turned into a 9 page thread suggests to me that yeah, people do want to talk about it, but I think you were mostly just joking. ;)

I've been on enworld for a long time, but haven't really posted a lot. Being in isolation has started to change that, so there are a lot of topics that I might bring up that are new to me, but very old hat to everyone else.
I was referring specifically to the evil Orcs argument which believe me has been done to death thrice over and became extremely decisive. I see no issues discussing old settings.

I’m in my 40’s and have been playing D&D since I was 10. I don’t know if that qualifies me as old guard or new but I’ll say not everyone who approves of the changes is new to the game or young.
 

twofalls

DM Beadle
I was referring specifically to the evil Orcs argument which believe me has been done to death thrice over and became extremely decisive. I see no issues discussing old settings.

I’m in my 40’s and have been playing D&D since I was 10. I don’t know if that qualifies me as old guard or new but I’ll say not everyone who approves of the changes is new to the game or young.
Actually I think 5e is the best version of D&D ever made bar none. I do not however like the way WotC is following the woke crowed on silly topics such as this, but I realize at this point that it's inevitable. I just opt out.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I think some of the old planescape fans annoyed people when they insisted planescape lore took precedence over say FR lore or whatever.
There have definitely been past discussions on ENWorld where people expressed annoyance with how Planescape essentially became THE meta-setting for D&D and how other settings should presume its meta-plots. This was admittedly not just an issue with Planescape, but also with the Manual of the Planes book, which Planescape adapted and magnified.
 



While I agree with the concept of it being setting dependent. The fact that D&D orcs are "evil" in the MM doesn't need to affect your table. I've used ambiguously aligned orcs and goblins since 1e and the orcs in the book always said "evil." It only affects your table if you let it, IMO.
Them being in the Monster Manual doesn't effect my table, but what was originally in Volo's Guide to Monsters did.
 

Dark Sun isn't politically incorrect because in Athas lots of horrible things happen. Petlum/Sword&sandal movies also had got lots of horrible things (slavery, Christians matyrs being eaten by the lions in the circus....) and nobody complained about "Quo Vadis" or "Spartacus". Hercucles & Xena also had got slavery.

It's right to use speculative fiction to promote positive values, but the mistake is to use a "too aggressive proselytizing". If you want really to convice don't force them to agree you, and don't try them to feel guilty because their point of view isn't enough politicallly correct.

* We should remember there are lots of factions in the D&D multiverse. Maybe someones are the Gatetowns but not in Sigil. This would allow adding new elements in the faction war, even when they aren't allowed within the city of the doors.

A new planar handbook is perfectly possible, or module compilations linked with the travels. The question is about the metaplots, all but Forgotten Realm are frozen.
 

Actually I think 5e is the best version of D&D ever made bar none. I do not however like the way WotC is following the woke crowed on silly topics such as this, but I realize at this point that it's inevitable. I just opt out.

I have probably just as much distaste for the overtly "woke" aspects as you will, but for me the whole orc thing is actually just restating how the game has been running for decades.

DMs around the world had neutral and good aligned orcs for ages, and were already adding nuance and thought into their depiction of the various evil-aligned humanoid races. Even TSR modules were fairly consistent in showing orcs (and drow, etc) that "broke the mold". All they've really done is restate that, and point out that nothing in the rules requires any individual orc to be evil (It was moving well away from that even by 3rd edition, 20 years ago).

Of course the internet and twitter are inhabited by a social group that gets really excited about these things, and they tend to inflame such things out of proportion, which of course just riles up the other social group on twitter, when really it was all just business as usual.
 

twofalls

DM Beadle
DMs around the world had neutral and good aligned orcs for ages, and were already adding nuance and thought into their depiction of the various evil-aligned humanoid races. Even TSR modules were fairly consistent in showing orcs (and drow, etc) that "broke the mold". All they've really done is restate that, and point out that nothing in the rules requires any individual orc to be evil (It was moving well away from that even by 3rd edition, 20 years ago).
Please see PM.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
Dark sun is different from the always evil races. Yes it's a horrible crapsack world barely hanging on after an apocalyptic series of events, but there is so much "evil" "argely because everyone is trying so desperately to survive. The sorcerer kings are horrible rulers but their cities have things like water food and an economy of some form along with walls and an army to keep people inside safe.. the people would happily transition to a new and improved ruling power given the xhance
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Dark sun is different from the always evil races. Yes it's a horrible crapsack world barely hanging on after an apocalyptic series of events, but there is so much "evil" "argely because everyone is trying so desperately to survive. The sorcerer kings are horrible rulers but their cities have things like water food and an economy of some form along with walls and an army to keep people inside safe.. the people would happily transition to a new and improved ruling power given the xhance

On Darksun evil won.

The veiled alliance and other good aligned beings/factions are the resistance.
 

tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
On Darksun evil won.

The veiled alliance and other good aligned beings/factions are the resistance.
yea. the darksun tvtropes page does a remarkably good job of (quickly) summarizing things. The various resistance groups may or may not be able to simply overturn the SK's, but on some level they know it would be a pyric victory lasting not much longer than a year till the seal on rajaat weakens enough for him to break free under the best of circumstances . Even the sorcerer kings took a step back from his abyss in horror/self interest & worked together to seal him away at some point.
 

twofalls

DM Beadle
There was a setting called Midnight, third party FFG I think. I have it on my shelf. Another setting where evil won, probably the darkest campain setting I've ever seen. I picked up most of the books for it because I thought they did a really good job with it, but I've not ever had a group who I thought would enjoy the darkness of the world. I have similar concerns about Rise of the Drow. It's slated to be our next campaign game and it takes place entirely in the underdark save for the first few scenes, and I'm not sure all my players will like that.

These are third party so its off topic, but talk about Darksun made me think of them.
 

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