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D&D 5E Planescape to languish in purgatory?


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tetrasodium

Hero
Supporter
Yeah, I had a hard time understanding this too.
I'm not @dave2008 , but At least in my case, it was a lot of work to slowly introduce that humanoids in general have bandits/raiders/war criminals/etc. Meanwhile my group of mostly newbies (one veteran player) had slowly been acclimated to the orc civilization they met being kind of naturalist gentle folks living ear the border between droaam & shadowmarches. In short, these folks which was pretty much the opposite of
all of the highlighted stuff is written entirely for FR with almost no consideration for settings where it doesn't apply & I called out in rage one of the pants on head bad assumptions wotc makes over & over again in 5e on the page itself
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Well it tells me my gm will work with me not that I should initiate vice versa & that I should look at chapter 1 for details on my chosen race's culture...
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who the bleep is gruumsh?! he sounds bad & orcs worse! do we need to go back to that poor little border village of orcs & cyran refugees we saved from war criminals?
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"Holy crap".. and I thought those karrnathi war criminals experimenting on refugees that we took down were bad...

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Not only are they bad, they are stupid, menacing, looking for a fight
VGTM gave the veteran guy who kept being quick to educate newbies on orcs/goblins/any other monstrous race they asked about something in the blackest shade of absolute morality black & white that he could point at & the race itself doesn't even fit. Orcs were already fairly settled for me when vgtm came out, but other monstrous races (gnoll especially cmes to mind) had a much higher bar for me to overcome when introducing them
 


Eltab

Is this a moon, or is it a space station?
Snarf Zagyg: "Pretty soon, we will see a Monopoly Setting."


It's clearly a dog. You could fit all the adventure potential in a thimble. Prove me wrong and I'll eat my hat!
Maybe we'd better pack the rulebook in the Car and drive it away ...
 




dave2008

Legend
Because I can easily ignore the Orc stat blocks in the Monster Manual, but having an official race is something that actually effects my table, forcing me to either homebrew non-evil, non-stupid orcs.
Really? Are you worried about using the PC rules or what it means for the wider world? I am confused about your issue. If you were fine with accepting non-evil, non-stupid orcs in deference to the MM, its seems less than trivial to accept them for PCs. I feel I must be missing something
 

Really? Are you worried about using the PC rules or what it means for the wider world? I am confused about your issue. If you were fine with accepting non-evil, non-stupid orcs in deference to the MM, its seems less than trivial to accept them for PCs. I feel I must be missing something
I think you're misunderstanding me, or I am misunderstanding you.

I don't like orcs always having to be evil and stupid, as that depends on setting. Thus, I didn't like the original Volo's Orc Race, and prefer the Eberron/Exandria one. I like that they errata'd the book to get rid of that original race. It is easier for me to just ignore the orc monster stat blocks in the MM than it is for me to homebrew an Orc race (before Eberron/Exandria Orcs came out, that is).
 

ardoughter

Adventurer
Supporter
I think you're misunderstanding me, or I am misunderstanding you.

I don't like orcs always having to be evil and stupid, as that depends on setting. Thus, I didn't like the original Volo's Orc Race, and prefer the Eberron/Exandria one. I like that they errata'd the book to get rid of that original race. It is easier for me to just ignore the orc monster stat blocks in the MM than it is for me to homebrew an Orc race (before Eberron/Exandria Orcs came out, that is).
Now I am curious, the thing I like about Vollo/Mordenkanien etc. is that they can be unreliable, prejudiced and what ever and that gives the DM the opportunity to subvert the common beliefs.
The MM descriptions in the past were represented as accurate and things like racial alignments were the result of fixed cosmic ordinances, where as Vollo's Guide is just reportage by some bloke.
 


It really is the case that a lot of players do seem to expect things to work in the default generic kind of way unless explicitly told otherwise.

It does get frustrating and make one feel like the grinch to keep saying "no it doesn't work this way". (And it would't occur to me to even call out these differences in advance as I've certainly got better things to do then to read through the umpteenth edition of WOTC describing what Orcs are).
 

dave2008

Legend
I think you're misunderstanding me, or I am misunderstanding you.

I don't like orcs always having to be evil and stupid, as that depends on setting. Thus, I didn't like the original Volo's Orc Race, and prefer the Eberron/Exandria one. I like that they errata'd the book to get rid of that original race. It is easier for me to just ignore the orc monster stat blocks in the MM than it is for me to homebrew an Orc race (before Eberron/Exandria Orcs came out, that is).
I think that is what I thought, but I just don't understand: if you accept that orcs are different than the MM why you can't except that theye different from Volo's? Why is it somehow more difficult to say they can have a different alignment and be intelligent for a PC vs a monster?

But everyone has different hang-ups. I don't have to understand to accept that it is an issue for you. I'm glad you've gotten some relief
 
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Hexmage-EN

Adventurer
Personally I'm more interested in a book on the planes of the Great Wheel and why I as a DM should set adventures in them rather than one on Planescape in general and Sigil in particular.

I started playing D&D during 3.5, and when I Iooked through the planes presented in the DMG my initial thought for most was "why would my players ever go there?" When 4E came around and replaced the Great Wheel with the World Axis I found it to be a significant improvement for the following reasons:

  • The planes were islands in an Astral Sea with ships that travelled between them, some being ships created by the gods themselves for various missions. A traveler might come upon an ark ship created by Bahamut, for example, captained by a powerful metallic dragon on a mission to rescue souls that are unable to enter the plane their soul was supposed to go to.
  • Each plane had at least one hook. Hestavar was the metropolis of the Astral Sea presided over by the gods of Light, Civilization, and Knowledge where even devils were welcome so long as they followed the law. One of the goddesses of Hestavar, Ioun, once had her own plane of Shom which was ruined and overrun by powerful monsters; as a result followers of Ioun hire adventurers to recover lost artifacts from the vaults of knowledge hidden in Shom. Carceri was where the gods created titans as weapons of war against the godlike elementals known as the primordials, and since the end of that conflict the plane has been on lockdown to prevent the means of creating titans from being used again (as a result Carceri is also used as a prison). Tytherion is the home of both Tiamat and Zehir, whose followers war against one another for control of the plane. Pluton is the graveyard of the gods where the most devoted followers of dead gods preside over tombs dedicated to them while trying to discover how their fallen patrons might be resurrected.
  • Instead of every single plane having it's own unique kind of celestial, for the most part the planes were filled with the souls of the exalted dead and overseen by angels of varying allegiances (most of which are highly professional freelancers who are dedicated to the gods but only serve a given god for a certain amount of time; an angel currently serving Pelor could have previously served Bane, for example).
  • These planes were extensively supported by adventures and lore in Dungeon Magazine and related character options in Dragon Magazine.

5E brought back the Great Wheel but largely seems uninterested in exploring it. Guardinals, archons, demodands, etc are nowhere to be found, not even mentions of them. Yugoloths have returned but have been massively reduced in importance; they are now said to have been commissioned by Asmodeus and created by night hags rather than being the original fiends, and the Blood War skips all the lower planes other than the Abyss and the Nine Hells thanks to the Styx allowing easy access to Avernus.

The designers almost seem to have brought back the Great Wheel just to placate people who hated 4E and have no true interest in using it or bringing back the other celestials and fiends. To be fair, the lack of the Dragon and Dungeon magazines has probably exacerbated the problem.

If anyone knows whether there are quality DMs Guild products covering Bytopia or Gehenna I'd be interested to know.
 

SkidAce

Hero
Supporter
If anyone knows whether there are quality DMs Guild products covering Bytopia or Gehenna I'd be interested to know.
I purchased and like all of the ones in this series.




The author has also done a revised compilation;

 

I purchased and like all of the ones in this series.




The author has also done a revised compilation;


Oh, I didn't know they had collected them all in a compendium! I had peeked at a couple of the individual offerings a while back, but was holding off until they completed the series, and subsequently forgot to check back on it. Looks like they released the compilation just last month. Thanks for the link!
 

The designers almost seem to have brought back the Great Wheel just to placate people who hated 4E and have no true interest in using it or bringing back the other celestials and fiends. To be fair, the lack of the Dragon and Dungeon magazines has probably exacerbated the problem.
This is usually the case in any edition until we get some sort of dedicated planar books or books. Heck, in 2e even demons and devils were completely banished for a good few years until they re-named them and released the Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium Appendix (and subsequently Planescape). With the slow release schedule of 5e, we really haven't had much on the planes other than Avernus and a chapter in MToF. Hopefully they'll give us more soon - they do seem to perpetually hint at the Great Modron March, after all.
 

Quickleaf

Legend

The canon books can say one thing, but after we can alter all in your homebred settings, for example gnomes and kobolds can be friends, or drows are followers deep dragons instead Lolth, or aasimar are popular because they defeated the deep state, a secret vampire lodge who ruled the human goverments.

The planes were designed to be visited and explored by high-level PCs. And we know nothing about possible plan to alter the cosmologies again. Maybe later WotC chooses the return of the Astral Sea because is the easies option to allow planar adventures for low level PCs (and those skyships are perfect to sell adventures about sailors vs pirates).

WotC allows an opened door for the return of Planescape, at least some planar handbook and some updated modules but we have to await because her project is slow, publishing candence is lower. They are working with other titles. What if they have to rebuild the complete cosmology because now they bet for the revival of the chronomancers?
 

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