D&D 4E Played Dark Sun 4E Last Night

tylermalan

First Post
1. Why didn't the Paladin die horribly in the first encounter when his divine powers didn't work and he realized that his god was a figment of his imagination.

2. Any hero walking around in full plate = death by dehydration

4. Actually try the new mechanics. Why aren't you doing themes?

8.I didn't feel that the module gave a good feel for the atmosphere of DS.

1) The paladin "worships" a Sorcerer-King, which I believe the book suggests Paladins do.

2) He's walking around in "Full Chitin". It is mechanically identical to full plate, but it is made of insect bones. The flavor text in the book says that the creators of the armor drill tiny holes throughout to make it wearable in the desert.

4) We are definitely using themes. The tiefling warlock (me) is using the Wasteland Nomad. The paladin is using Templar (or ex-Templar). The shaman is using the elemental priest one (forget the name). The Psion is using Noble Adept.

Because our DM had just received the book, he hadn't had time to read through it and see if there were any other "new" mechanics (like weapon breakage, increased chances for starvation and thirst and how those play out in the campaign, etc)

8) Which module are you referring to?
 

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tylermalan

First Post
The Darksun setting is really a great one, but I think the 4E campaign guide is setting you guys up for failure.

With Darksun, it is a "Sword and Planet" setting, where the alien nature of the world and cultures is a key factor in the enjoyment of the setting. One of the big deals with the setting is that the races are totally different than what you would expect.

Halflings are savage jungle dwelling head hunters and cannibals, with a strong primal bent. They largely live beyond the ringing mountains and are fairly rare in the Tyr region.

Elves are free spirited desert running nomads who are usually borderline sociopaths at best. The entire concept of "being responsible" or "planning ahead" is laughable to them. They are lazy, shiftless, and will do exactly as little work as is required to get by for the day. They are often murderous desert raiders, or back alley criminals. Reserved, cultured, and thoughtful Tolkien like elves would be aghast. Tree hugging earthmother types with mood crystal collection elves would be horrified.

Dwarves pick a goal for their life and will do anything to accomplish it. Anything. If they need to build an orphanage to get it done, so be it. If they need to burn down an orphanage to get it done, so be it.

Thri-Kreen have an alien hive like group psychology, everything is about order and position within the group, and for the benefit of the group. They are also an insectoid species that thinks very differently than humanoids.

Half-giants are not terribly bright, but are keen observers who mimic the cultures, personalities and even ethics of the people around them. If a half-giant is wounded and is left in the care of a healer, they will start to act like a care-giver who helps people. If that same half-giant is captured by a group of slavers and desert raiders, that half-giant will become a raider. Some aspect of their personality will stay fixed though, maybe they are always lawful for example, but good or evil depends on the environment.

Races like Tieflings were inserted into the setting because Wizards was "afraid they would make someone cry if they couldn't play their favorite race from the PHB1". I'm dead serious, it was in one of the seminars about the 4E version.

I think in the end they were just too afraid to "lay down the cannon" for the setting, and gave you a watered down impression of the setting. Since you were new to the setting and didn't know any better, that lead you astray and to the conclusion that things didn't feel "different" enough.

They basically offered to cook you a big plate of Indian food, then they got scared that you might not like the strong spices and made it bland, and now you are "meh" on Indian food because bland food isn't terribly inspiring. Oh, and they added hamburgers to the menu because they were afraid someone might come to an Indian restaurant and not want to order Indian food.


I'd say have everyone re-roll with a "core" Darksun race (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Thri-Kreen, Half-Giant, Halfling). Have them pick a Martial, Primal, or Psionic power source. Maybe allow one player at most to be an Arcane power source, since defiler/preservers are hunted like dogs in the setting (like straight up, cast a spell on a street and a mob will pick up cobble stones and try and stone you to death), said party member should be afraid to even let the other party members know they are a preserver/defiler for a good long while. Use the inherent bonuses system and the 'non-metal weapons break on a 1' rule. Have the DM embrace his inner "evil cackle", and have fun.

This looks an awful lot like good advice...

I may just pose these things to my group and see how it goes. The problem is that character creation took like 5 hours because we only have one DSCS. Heh.
 

Instead of advice, I'm going to share blame:

I blame your DM for letting you create such off-flavor characters in his game and for not being prepared (not reading the book front-to-back).

I blame the mediocre adventure for not giving you a good idea of what Athas is really all about.

And I blame you players for not using the tools given and not having the patience to get more play experience before judging.

Lots of blame to go around.

Oh, and because I haven't seen it yet, I'll add that the wilderness rules crunch has been updated. That's an important change and I think it's done very well. Traveling outside feels "deserty" and deadly.
 

Dwarves pick a goal for their life and will do anything to accomplish it. Anything. If they need to build an orphanage to get it done, so be it. If they need to burn down an orphanage to get it done, so be it.
As an aside, that's more or less how I always envisioned many Dwarves even before DS. Thorin Oakenshield may have been my model for such.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. :D
 

tylermalan

First Post
Instead of advice, I'm going to share blame:

I blame your DM for letting you create such off-flavor characters in his game and for not being prepared (not reading the book front-to-back).

I blame the mediocre adventure for not giving you a good idea of what Athas is really all about.

And I blame you players for not using the tools given and not having the patience to get more play experience before judging.

Lots of blame to go around.

Oh, and because I haven't seen it yet, I'll add that the wilderness rules crunch has been updated. That's an important change and I think it's done very well. Traveling outside feels "deserty" and deadly.

Yikes! Well, the DM is really not to blame. What happened was that he didn't get the book until two days before we were going to play, and told us that he didn't have time to read everything. He asked us if we still wanted to play knowing that we would likely be leaving some things out, and we said yes.

In which book have the wilderness rules been updated? Was this extremely recent?
 

kerbarian

Explorer
I'd say have everyone re-roll with a "core" Darksun race (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Thri-Kreen, Half-Giant, Halfling). Have them pick a Martial, Primal, or Psionic power source. Maybe allow one player at most to be an Arcane power source, since defiler/preservers are hunted like dogs in the setting (like straight up, cast a spell on a street and a mob will pick up cobble stones and try and stone you to death), said party member should be afraid to even let the other party members know they are a preserver/defiler for a good long while. Use the inherent bonuses system and the 'non-metal weapons break on a 1' rule. Have the DM embrace his inner "evil cackle", and have fun.
One of my reactions to the DSCS was that, while I generally like how they've handled all the individual pieces, it still just feels like 4e to me, and I expect Dark Sun to feel like more of a departure. Limiting races and power sources seems like a good start. Taking the low-magic aspect of Athas seriously could help as well. It actually fits pretty well with the new Essentials article about magic item rarity -- Dark Sun would be perfect for a rare-items-only campaign.

The main thing left that doesn't quite seem right is that 4e combat doesn't feel deadly enough to me for Dark Sun. 4e combat is largely about managing resources -- specifically, healing surges and daily powers -- and (at least IME) only the most climactic fights feel threatening. I wonder if it could work to mostly or entirely eliminate in-combat healing in a Dark Sun campaign. You'd probably have to reduce encounter difficulties, and it would clearly be into house rule territory, but it would definitely change the feel of the game in a major way. Instead of every monster hit being a drain on your resources, every hit is bringing you that much closer to unconsciousness or death, and the only way to stop it is to kill them before they kill you.
 

tylermalan

First Post
Eliminating in-combat healing would be really rough for many encounters in the published adventures, not even just necessarily the Dark Sun ones.
 

Nymrohd

First Post
I'd say that when you are trying a new setting, you should be trying it's archetypes closely. If I am to play darksun I need to be an escaped slave, a former mul gladiator, an elven bard/assassin or a human of the veiled alliance. Archetypes (And themes manage them nicely) are what help tie your character to a setting.

Edit: I am not suggesting that it is badwrongfun not to do so btw. Just that it would really help everyone in the table if the characters were in tune with the thematic elements of the setting since it would enhance the experience particularly for new players who can use a guide in adapting their characters to the reality of a setting like Dark Sun, which is quite different than your average medieval fantasy setting.
 
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OchreJelly

First Post
Like any campaign setting, its tone is largely driven by both the players and DM. Basically, it's what you put into it. Now given that you guys are new to DS, I think the best advice would be for everyone to read the introduction. I think it lays out very well the 7 or so design goals for DS. This should get everyone in the mood for what the setting is about.
 

Insight

Adventurer
I blame the mediocre adventure for not giving you a good idea of what Athas is really all about.

Definitely. The adventure at the end of the DSCS is pretty bland. Marauders is OK, but you either start the PCs at 2nd level, let them play it from 1st, or write your own 1st level adventure (that's what I've done). I will NOT run the adventure at the end of the book.
 

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