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Player 1 'grabs and pulls' player 2, then claims it's 'Forced movement, no AtOp'
- Thread starter Ninja-to
- Start date
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
This is not supported by the rules. If I use a power to, for example, slide a creature, regardless if they are friend or foe, it's forced movement and does not trigger OAs. Forced does not refer to willingness, it refers to if you are doing it or if someone else is doing it to you.
Look, 4e has made the choice that only you moving you provoke OAs - other people moving you does not (unless a power specifically overrules it). This is clear cut
Using grab to move (exactly as put forth in the rules) doesn't trigger OAs on the person who is being moved. This is clear cut.
The "forced" part of forced movement just doesn't mean what you think it means.
i would just like to point out two presidents off the top of my head for forced movement on allies not provoking AoO: the bards majestic word power, which says "You also slide the target 1 square" and the shamans Assistance of the Strong Spirit utility "you slide the target a number of squares equal to half your speed..."
neiver of those powers specify that the target does not gain an AoO, and both target allies.
the bards heal would be pretty bad if you got the choice to heal when you use it but HAVE to slide them one, and that provoked an AoO.
edit: forced movement refers to all moves where someone else decides where you move, its not forced movement if you get given a choice. eg. a slide 1 v shift 1: the only real difference is who chooses where you go.
neiver of those powers specify that the target does not gain an AoO, and both target allies.
the bards heal would be pretty bad if you got the choice to heal when you use it but HAVE to slide them one, and that provoked an AoO.
edit: forced movement refers to all moves where someone else decides where you move, its not forced movement if you get given a choice. eg. a slide 1 v shift 1: the only real difference is who chooses where you go.
It's clarified in PHB2 that all movement parts of powers are actually voluntarily, whether they say you move or you may move or you move up to ....
No, forced movement is only when it's explicitly a pull, push or slide. If there's a power where someone forces you to move and it's not called a push, pull or slide it's not forced movement
john112364
Explorer
I'm just not sure why you posted the question here anyway. If your mind was already made up (as it seems to be), them why bother. It's your game, your rules. But if every other poster disagrees with you, cites pages and compendium entries and examples to back them up, shouldn't take a deep breath, think a moment and entertain the possibility that maybe, just maybe, you were wrong and misinterpeded the rules? The question was asked and answered. And I'm sorry you couldn't find anyone to agree with you, but RAW is RAW. (And I think even RAI.)
If you want it to work differently, make a house rule, inform your players about it, and move on! Arguing is not going to change anything and only leads to hard feelings.
Time to move on to the next discusion dude.
If you want it to work differently, make a house rule, inform your players about it, and move on! Arguing is not going to change anything and only leads to hard feelings.
Time to move on to the next discusion dude.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Question answered, thread closed?
The first post were alrady very repetitive, due to the fact, that the OP seems to want support for his opinion. It was just disguised as a question.
To answer the "question": Do you allow enemies to use an OA if the bard heals a taget and slides it away? I hope not, it really is one of the few ways a bard can mitigate damage. In a very special way.
Is it forced by definition? -Yes.
Do you willingly acceept healing and repositioning? - Of course.
The first post were alrady very repetitive, due to the fact, that the OP seems to want support for his opinion. It was just disguised as a question.
To answer the "question": Do you allow enemies to use an OA if the bard heals a taget and slides it away? I hope not, it really is one of the few ways a bard can mitigate damage. In a very special way.
Is it forced by definition? -Yes.
Do you willingly acceept healing and repositioning? - Of course.
Uller
Adventurer
Did you make him expend a standard action and make an attack roll to grab his target?
Did you allow an entire round to pass and then make him make a str check to "move" his target?
If your player is saying he did all this in one round (unless he spent an action point), then he's completely off his gord. If he is doing this over two rounds...I'd say one player giving up two standard actions (at least...he could have missed or failed his str check!) in order to move an ally to avoid a friend taking an AoO is completely fair and well within the spirit of the rules.
If you allowed this player to do all this in one round (or if your player was insisting he could do it in one round) then he's incorrect. Grab is a standard action, moving a grabbed character is a standard action.
Did you allow an entire round to pass and then make him make a str check to "move" his target?
If your player is saying he did all this in one round (unless he spent an action point), then he's completely off his gord. If he is doing this over two rounds...I'd say one player giving up two standard actions (at least...he could have missed or failed his str check!) in order to move an ally to avoid a friend taking an AoO is completely fair and well within the spirit of the rules.
If you allowed this player to do all this in one round (or if your player was insisting he could do it in one round) then he's incorrect. Grab is a standard action, moving a grabbed character is a standard action.
Uller
Adventurer
For what it's worth, this works for me both in the story telling level...I can imagine a character pulling another from danger...and even in real life...When I was in a combat training exercise prior to going to Iraq a few years ago, my fire team came under fire. We were caught in the open and had to move to cover. I was moving a lot slower than one of my teammates so he grabbed hold of the back of my body armor and shoved while I fired a few bursts in the general direction of where the shots were coming from.
In essence, he gave up one of his actions to move me to cover (soldiers are trained to not shoot past friendlies...so he didn't have a clear shot) while I took my normal actions (firing and moving). He could have failed....he could have missed me, tripped, tripped me...all sorts of bad could have happened. But he didn't and we all got to cover and I managed to get a few shots in.
In essence, he gave up one of his actions to move me to cover (soldiers are trained to not shoot past friendlies...so he didn't have a clear shot) while I took my normal actions (firing and moving). He could have failed....he could have missed me, tripped, tripped me...all sorts of bad could have happened. But he didn't and we all got to cover and I managed to get a few shots in.
What I understand from the OP is that he houseruled the whole grab and move and then seems upset at how his houserule is working? That grab and move should have taken two standard actions. It seems to me you allowed it to take just a move and maybe a minor. That was the part you probably changed. If you did, you should also have alerted your players before they acted that this would allow enemies an OA, as normally they would not. Your player is correct in how the movement should work. If you were to run everthing RAW (two standards), it cannot in any way be used as an exploit.
Sounds to me, this is a perfect time to invoke DEFCON 1's Rule Of Thumb 1 and Rule of Thumb 2.
Please remember that DracoSuave is a x5 Multiplier for a reason.
Please remember that DracoSuave is a x5 Multiplier for a reason.
