D&D 5E Player challange Vs Character challange (Metagaming)

[Sunseeker]

All challenges are inherently player challenges, as the characters have no will or consciousness and thus no ability to act on their own. THe characters are, however, the filter through which players interact with the world and thus, though I know I am challenging my players, I moderate their results through the skills of their character.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I answered "what you know you know", but that doesn't imply that knowledge skills are never useful, because I'll use character skills to give the player extra knowledge like "That guy is lying to you." But it's fair game to use player knowledge any way you want, and my players are aware of this.

That doesn't guarantee that player knowledge will be correct.

 

[Sunseeker]

This thread actually reminded me that for my next game I was thinking of making some knowledge cards for my world. Some general information the players wouldn't have to roll for, with some bonus cards based on their intelligence score, about the world which would tie into the game. Dunno how complicated I want to make it though.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't think it's possible to avoid challenges being a mix of the two. Players make the decisions, and characters influence the outcome of the dice rolls with their modifiers.

As for metagaming specifically, in general I think the game is more immersive when players take the effort to avoid metagaming, and in broad strokes this makes for a more enjoyable game IMXP. It's not reasonable however to believe you can force players not to metagame ever. Just warn them that metagaming carries its own risks, and that if you metagame wrong (i.e. if the reality of the game world doesn't match your metagame assumptions) it's only your fault and not the DM's or the fantasy world's fault.

 

[Lanefan]

Challenges come in many forms, some of which go through player knowledge, some through character knowledge, and some through the dice.

Most puzzles, codes, ciphers and the like are pure player knowledge - the players either figure out the answer or they don't. Also in the realm of pure player knowledge are most physical and scientific things e.g. geology, weather, etc.; here I assume educated characters e.g. most Wizards will know as much as the real-world player does and thus the player knowledge will do; and less-educated characters can simply ask the brainy one.

Most monster information, magic item properties, etc. and pretty much all exploration are pure character knowledge - just because the player knows you need fire or acid to finish off a troll doesn't mean the character does and I expect it to be roleplayed that way; and just because the player has seen the game-world map (or, as happens sometimes, has played through the current module before) doesn't mean the character knows much of it at all.

Some other things end up as a mix of the two, and that's where the dice come in.

Lanefan

 

[ZickZak]

What a character knows from previous encounters is what it knows. If they don't know something, they can roll for it. DC can be made very high for unknown things to make them guessable only by chars with prof. bonus in the skill.

 

[wedgeski]

All challenges are inherently player challenges, as the characters have no will or consciousness and thus no ability to act on their own. THe characters are, however, the filter through which players interact with the world and thus, though I know I am challenging my players, I moderate their results through the skills of their character.

"You want to break through the door? Make an Athletics check."

That is a character challenge, unless you consider rolling a d20 to be challenging for the player!

I'm all for getting our definitions right, but really guys?

 

[ExploderWizard]

Indeed.

As a person that voted 3) Both, I think these options are poorly phrased. All player skill is an absurd (impossible?) game, at least in D&D. You'll always need to rely on your character's skill/knowledge, regardless of your experience as a player.

Are you sure about that? D&D was being played long before there were any knowledge skills for characters. When were exploring dungeons in B/X I don't recall having access to the skill or knowledge of a fictional character to provide useful information. The characters had the skills to fight, cast spells, and other physical adventuring tasks that the player might not possess but that was expressed in our odds of success when rolling to hit or something similar.

Figuring out puzzles, how to avoid traps, parleying with violent monsters and negotiating with NPCs was all up to the player. Thus players who had learned from experience were better at these aspects of play regardless of character level. If you think about it, that was the entire reason tournament play was popular. Teams of players competing against each other playing the same pre-generated characters in the same scenarios. If only character skill and knowledge mattered what would be the point of tournament play? It was a test of overall player skill.

 

[Yunru]

"You want to break through the door? Make an Athletics check."

That is a character challenge, unless you consider rolling a d20 to be challenging for the player!

I'm all for getting our definitions right, but really guys?

Nuh uh. That's twisting the situation.

"There's a door in your way."
That's a player challenge. What you quote isn't a challenge, it's a resolution of a solution that came forth from the challenge to the player.

 

[Sunseeker]

"You want to break through the door? Make an Athletics check."

That is a character challenge, unless you consider rolling a d20 to be challenging for the player!

I'm all for getting our definitions right, but really guys?

Well, there's roll-play and there's role-play. If Bob wants to break down the door I'm going to have him tell me how he's doing it before he ever drops the dice on the table.

Yeah, you can go heavy roll-play in attempt to cut the player out of the character, but I find it loses something.