Player Control, OR "How the game has changed over the years, and why I don't like it"

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Ruling that a zombie can't trip a hydra isn't arbitrary, it's based on reasons of subjective plausibility.

Why is it impossible for a zombie (by definition, a made-up creature) to trip a hydra (also by definition, a made-up creature)?

 

[Dannager]

Arbitrary is "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system". Ruling that a zombie can't trip a hydra isn't arbitrary, it's based on reasons of subjective plausibility.

It's based on the "reasoning" that the DM doesn't like imagining a zombie knocking a hydra prone in his own head.

But sure, I'll play this game.

What is it that prevents the zombie from knocking down the hydra? The zombie's minion status? If minions can't knock down non-minions, then they shouldn't be able to knock down players, so clearly that's not it. The fact that the zombie is smaller than the hydra? If that's the case, no player power should be able to knock a large or larger creature prone. The fact that the hydra has multiple legs? If that's the case, how many legs does it take to gain utter immunity from being knocked prone?

Face it: this is an unquestionably arbitrary decision based on the DM's personal conception of how he feels a game mechanic should and should not work, to the point of ignoring the rules and the desires of his players.

I think the real problem is that you believe that the rules supersedes the DM's right to prioritize the narrative when it feels appropriate.

I believe that the desires of the DM often do not outweigh the desires of his players, and I believe this to be especially true when the game's rules are on the player's side. And I've said this twice now.

You can leap to the defense of some imagined inviolate narrative all you want, but I really doubt that allowing your players to knock a hydra prone with a minion would ruin anything in your game, and at most would require you to suspend the tiniest fragment of disbelief for a single monster's turn for the sake of the shared enjoyment your players will get out of their clever move.

There's one way to play chess.

Absolutely.

Oh, unless you count Fischer Random Chess. Or displacement chess. Or transcendental chess. Or upside-down chess. Or Dunsany's chess. Or handicap chess. Or the pawns game. Or peasant's revolt. Or Weak!. Or Active Chess. Or Alice chess. Or circular chess. Or Cubic Chess. Or cylinder chess. Or Chess Attack. Or Doublewide chess. Or flying chess. Or gravity chess. Or grid chess. Or hexagonal chess. Or infinite chess. Or Lord Loss chess. Or Los Alamos chess. Or Milennium chess. Or Minichess. Or Polgar Superstar Chess. Or singularity chess. Or three-dimensional chess. Or Absorption Chess (or Absorption Chess II). Or Accelerated Chess. Or Andernach chess. Or Antichess. Or Arimaa. Or Atomic chess. Or Benedict chess. Or Checkers chess. Or checkless chess. Or Chicken Chess. Or Circe chess. Or Crazyhouse. Or Einstein chess. Or extinction chess. Or Genesis Chess. Or guard chess. Or hierarchical chess. or Jedi Knight chess. Or knight relay chess. Or Knightmare. Or Legan chess. Or Madrasi chess. Or monochromatic chess. Or patrol chess. Or PlunderChess. Or refusal chess. Or replacement chess. Or rifle chess. Or Stationary King. Or Take-all. Or Three-check chess. Or ChessHeads. Or dark chess. Or dice chess. Or Fantasy Chess. Or Kriegspiel. Or No Stress Chess. Or Play It By Trust. Or Penultima. Or Schrodinger's chess. Or synchronous chess. Or avalance chess. Or doublemove chess. Or kung-fu chess. Or Marsellais chess. Or monster chess. Or progressive chess. Or zonal chess. Or Bosworth. Or bughouse chess. Or business chess. Or Djambi. Or Enochian chess. Or Forchess. Or four-handed chess. Or fortress chess. Or three player chess. Or Queen's Quadrille. Or Hippodrome. Or Anti-King chess. Or Baroque. Or Berolina chess. Or Bomberman chess. Or chess with different armies. Or Dragonchess. Or Duell. Or Gess. Or grasshopper chess. Or Maharajah and the Sepoys. Or omega chess. Or pocket mutation chess. Or Pole chess. Or Shako. Or stealth chess. Or 2000 A.D. Or Capablanca chess (or Capablanca random chess). Or Embassy Chess. Or Gothic chess. Or grand chess. Or Janus chess. Or modern chess. Or Seirawan chess. Or Chessers. Or Proteus. Or playing cards on a chess board.

Oh, and my personal favorite: Knightmare Chess.

Credit to Wikipedia for that ridiculously long list of chess variants.

How many different ways can you play D&D? Just one way?

Any number of ways. But this isn't about trying to find the One True Way to play D&D. This is advice, and it's good advice: if you put your personal desires above those of your players even when they have the rules on their side - especially when it's over something as incredibly trivial as whether or not a zombie can knock a hydra prone! - you are sabotaging your own game.

 

[Dannager]

And sometimes the rules need to be hammered with the Sit Down and Shut Up ability (no save) in the name of common sense, believability, realism, consistency, or any of a bunch of other things where hard-and-fast rules just don't fit.

I have found that, in almost every situation where it comes up, the human mind is more than imaginative enough to come up with a plausible scenario whereby the situation dictated by the rules makes perfect make-believe sense. I do not see "That doesn't make sense in the magic elf land in my head!" as an acceptable reason to shut down something a player is absolutely allowed under the rules.

Would the player's proposed action utterly and without question ruin your entire campaign with no chance for you to reconcile the events? Then sure, you might have cause to ask them to change their mind. Otherwise? Don't be that DM.

Oh, and because why the heck not:

The more rules there are in a system, the more likely it becomes that someone will find a way to use them to break said system. For example, having functional 'trip' rules is great. Allowing them to be used against oozes or air elementals is broken.

It is not broken, and I challenge you to prove that it is.

Furthermore, I will make the argument that not allowing the prone condition to affect oozes/air elementals/whatever is broken, as it is an immunity that is not factored into their design and thus does not receive the benefit of balance considerations under the system's assumptions.

 

[NoWayJose]

And sometimes the rules need to be hammered with the Sit Down and Shut Up ability (no save) in the name of common sense, believability, realism, consistency, or any of a bunch of other things where hard-and-fast rules just don't fit.

Indeed. Perhaps a desperate DM beset by rules lawyers can simply hand out a form to each player at the beginning of every game session. This form goes something like:

D&D Player Consent Form
------------------------

The undersigned hereby consent to abide by the DM's Houserule that he/she may Veto any rule at any time for any reason x times per session. The DM must provide an explanation for the Veto based on reasons of believability, verisimilitude, plausibility, or narration (unless classified as Top Secret due to a yet undisclosed plot element in which case the DM must disclose the reason after it has been de-classified). Each player may then submit a counterargument to the DM. After consideration of each counterargument, the DM then makes his final decision and, if affirmed, the Veto is formally passed and officially in effect as if it were an Official Decree from Wizards of the Coast for a 24 hour period.

Any player who disagrees with the Houserule must leave the premises immediately, although he/she may join any other D&D group that does not employ this consent form.

Printed Name __________________
Signature ____________________
Date _________________________

 

[TheUltramark]

Why is it impossible for a zombie (by definition, a made-up creature) to trip a hydra (also by definition, a made-up creature)?

a number of reasons, but mostly because I say so (in my game...in your game it may in fact be a common occurrence, and so be it.

 

[TheUltramark]

player: I knock the hydra prone with a punch

Me (dm) : No you don't, you do what for damage?

player: it says right here, target knocked prone ! ! !

Me: Hydras are immune to getting knocked prone

player: no they aren't ! ! ! (tears starting to form)

Me: this one is

player: that's not fair ! ! ! ! (kicking of feet about to commence)

Me: If you don't tell me the damage, I'm gonna assume it's zero...

player: that's B---S--- this is my power, it says I knock it prone, damnit, it gets knocked prone!!!!!!

Me: OK, the Hydra falls over, shaking the ground, everyone make a athletics check to stay standing {{DC 50 }} - whoops, looks like everyone's prone...good job

 

[NoWayJose]

Me: OK, the Hydra falls over, shaking the ground, everyone make a athletics check to stay standing {{DC 50 }} - whoops, looks like everyone's prone...good job

Some other ideas:

Realmass Hydra:
Trait - Realistically Sturdy: The realmass hydra is synchronized with the laws of mass, gravity and momentum, and cannot be knocked prone by any creature 3 sizes or lower.

Longheaded Hydra:
Trait - Autonomous Bite: When the hydra is prone, it may continue to use bite and breath attacks as if it were not prone.

Wobblecrusher Hydra:
Trait - Wobbly: When knocked prone, the hydra falls over onto any adjacent square. Any creatures in that square are crushed for 5d10 damage and pinned and immobilized until the hydra is no longer prone.

 

[Dannager]

a number of reasons, but mostly because I say so (in my game...in your game it may in fact be a common occurrence, and so be it.

See, if we were arguing against a caricature or a straw-man, that would be one thing. But we're not. The above post is a real post that a real person who (probably) runs a real game wrote.

 

[Dannager]

player: I knock the hydra prone with a punch

Me (dm) : No you don't, you do what for damage?

player: it says right here, target knocked prone ! ! !

Me: Hydras are immune to getting knocked prone

player: no they aren't ! ! ! (tears starting to form)

Me: this one is

player: that's not fair ! ! ! ! (kicking of feet about to commence)

Me: If you don't tell me the damage, I'm gonna assume it's zero...

player: that's B---S--- this is my power, it says I knock it prone, damnit, it gets knocked prone!!!!!!

Me: OK, the Hydra falls over, shaking the ground, everyone make a athletics check to stay standing {{DC 50 }} - whoops, looks like everyone's prone...good job

If you were trying to make your hypothetical player appear entitled, petulant, and prone to throwing tantrums when he doesn't get his way, that tactic maaaaaaaay have backfired on you, there.

In this scenario, you: ignored the game's rules, told the player no (outright), made up an arbitrary immunity for your monster to have that negated a clever player's tactic post hoc, threatened to make the player's damage zero when he challenged your made-up-on-the-spot-immunity, and then punished the entire group (again, totally arbitrarily) with a (once again, made-up-on-the-spot) rule that when big creatures fall prone (or maybe just hydras? Who knows? No one, because it's arbitrary!) they knock everyone around them prone unless they succeed on a truly ludicrous Athletics DC (that, by the way, makes far less sense than knocking a hydra prone in the first place) and then blamed your punishment of the group on the player.

Just to be clear, this is what you actually would do if this situation arose?

 

[TheUltramark]

See, if we were arguing against a caricature or a straw-man, that would be one thing. But we're not. The above post is a real post that a real person who (probably) runs a real game wrote.

when you say above post, do you mean mine, or the patryn of elvenshae

I certainly meant no disrespect to him or his opinion, he asked me a question, and I answered it. My next post is a clearer example of what I originally posted.