Player/DM Issues: Please Help!
- Thread starter gfunk
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BSF
Explorer
I love to use Knowledge skill rolls in my games! The players get a kick out of learning something new from a decent roll on a high skill. But, I will be honest, depending on how esoteric something is, an 18 might not be good enough. For unusual undead, my DC's are usually above 20.
With 3.5, there are now rules in there that formalize the DC. IMC, that will be a good starting point for most monsters. For the really rare creatures though, I will probably add a modifier. I don't have the stats for the Scion of Kyuss, but if this had been a Spawn of Kyuss, with 4 HD, you should have gotten something a little more specific. But, the question then comes down to what does the character know?
does the character know that a successful Remove Curse, or Remove Disease will turn the Spawn into a normal Zombie? That the slam attack can spread a supernatural disease that drains Wisdom and Con? That the worms will eat your brain in a matter of minutes? That the Spawn is harder to turn than normal?
It's a judgement call. I am not quite willing to say that your DM screwed up. Maybe the DC to know anything about a Scion of Kyuss is higher than 18, for whatever reason?
If his idea of providing pertinent information was the description of worms, then I would say that was a bad call. There is certainly more pertinent information then the observation of worms.
Now, if you didn't reach the DC, then it would have been more helpful to say "You don't recall anything special about these. They look like Zombies, but zombies don't normally cause your buddies to flee in abject terror. There also seems to be a higher quantity of worms crawling on their bodies than for normal zombies." Basically, I would have played it up that even those these things look like zombies, there are enough clues that the character knows something is odd about them, even if he can't clue into the exact details.
Now, I will pretend that this is a Spawn of Kyuss in my campaign with 3.5 rules. The DC to know about a 4 HD undead would be 14. Because they are exceedingly rare in my game, I would probably bump that up to a 19. Your roll of an 18 would tempt me to drop my modified DC. I would probably resist the tempation. But, I would give you a circumstance modifier that as soon as a worm jumped out and started burrowing, you would recall details! For me, that would help keep up the drama and keep the fear of death alive, without dooming the characters totally. Now, if the Knowledge roll had been lower, it would have been bad! Of course, that is just my style. Some people wouldn't apply a modifier because a Spawn of Kyuss might be more common in their game, or because they have a different DM style.
With 3.5, there are now rules in there that formalize the DC. IMC, that will be a good starting point for most monsters. For the really rare creatures though, I will probably add a modifier. I don't have the stats for the Scion of Kyuss, but if this had been a Spawn of Kyuss, with 4 HD, you should have gotten something a little more specific. But, the question then comes down to what does the character know?
does the character know that a successful Remove Curse, or Remove Disease will turn the Spawn into a normal Zombie? That the slam attack can spread a supernatural disease that drains Wisdom and Con? That the worms will eat your brain in a matter of minutes? That the Spawn is harder to turn than normal?
It's a judgement call. I am not quite willing to say that your DM screwed up. Maybe the DC to know anything about a Scion of Kyuss is higher than 18, for whatever reason?
If his idea of providing pertinent information was the description of worms, then I would say that was a bad call. There is certainly more pertinent information then the observation of worms.
Now, if you didn't reach the DC, then it would have been more helpful to say "You don't recall anything special about these. They look like Zombies, but zombies don't normally cause your buddies to flee in abject terror. There also seems to be a higher quantity of worms crawling on their bodies than for normal zombies." Basically, I would have played it up that even those these things look like zombies, there are enough clues that the character knows something is odd about them, even if he can't clue into the exact details.
Now, I will pretend that this is a Spawn of Kyuss in my campaign with 3.5 rules. The DC to know about a 4 HD undead would be 14. Because they are exceedingly rare in my game, I would probably bump that up to a 19. Your roll of an 18 would tempt me to drop my modified DC. I would probably resist the tempation. But, I would give you a circumstance modifier that as soon as a worm jumped out and started burrowing, you would recall details! For me, that would help keep up the drama and keep the fear of death alive, without dooming the characters totally. Now, if the Knowledge roll had been lower, it would have been bad! Of course, that is just my style. Some people wouldn't apply a modifier because a Spawn of Kyuss might be more common in their game, or because they have a different DM style.
Graf
Explorer
This is why DMs should roll knowledge checks in secret.
I agree with 3.5's decision to limit knowledge skills by combining them. (as well as split up monster lores among the different classes.
Unless the scions of Klyss are very very common, a role of 18 wouldn't have given you what you were looking for. Using a general knowledge check to find out about specific game information should be hard. Especially since most people who get the worms die before they ever tell anyone about it and then try to kill people around them.
Think about the probabilities.... A DC of 18 to know this stuff would mean that if you gathered of a representative swath of the population (all with average intelligence) 3 in 20 would know that "the worms of Scions of Kyuss burrow into the brain, causing death quickly". While it's possible that there is some game world so over-run with these things that everyone knows this it's pretty unlikely in your average game.
I expect that checks to find something out would probably go something like
If they're common or famous (goblins in many D&D worlds)
DC 15 -- These are called <whatever>. And a sentence about them.
DC 20 -- General facts about them, where they live, what they do, historical info (like goblins are more common than they were in previous years, the multiply rapidly due to a high birthrate, etc.). Maybe info about local tribes
DC 25 -- Specific details about the creatures, including abilities. General overview of goblins in the world (including in regions other than the one you grew up in). Probably put favored classes and other game mechanics type info in this catagory including "specific ramifactions of parasites living on their bodies".
If they aren't common I would add a minimum of +5 to the DC.
I agree with 3.5's decision to limit knowledge skills by combining them. (as well as split up monster lores among the different classes.
Unless the scions of Klyss are very very common, a role of 18 wouldn't have given you what you were looking for. Using a general knowledge check to find out about specific game information should be hard. Especially since most people who get the worms die before they ever tell anyone about it and then try to kill people around them.
Think about the probabilities.... A DC of 18 to know this stuff would mean that if you gathered of a representative swath of the population (all with average intelligence) 3 in 20 would know that "the worms of Scions of Kyuss burrow into the brain, causing death quickly". While it's possible that there is some game world so over-run with these things that everyone knows this it's pretty unlikely in your average game.
I expect that checks to find something out would probably go something like
If they're common or famous (goblins in many D&D worlds)
DC 15 -- These are called <whatever>. And a sentence about them.
DC 20 -- General facts about them, where they live, what they do, historical info (like goblins are more common than they were in previous years, the multiply rapidly due to a high birthrate, etc.). Maybe info about local tribes
DC 25 -- Specific details about the creatures, including abilities. General overview of goblins in the world (including in regions other than the one you grew up in). Probably put favored classes and other game mechanics type info in this catagory including "specific ramifactions of parasites living on their bodies".
If they aren't common I would add a minimum of +5 to the DC.
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Cedric
First Post
First of all...I wouldn't have used those in my game, I don't like them. But if for some reason I was feeling vindictive I would require a Knowledge Religion: DC 20 check to pick up enough info to know what to avoid...
If any of my players heard me describe something specific on a Knowledge Check of 18 they would have known it was something important though.
If you roll a check, do fairly good and I give you info...it's info you NEED to know. If you roll abyssmal, I'll gladly give you false information.
The party once lost a very nice treasure hoard, cause the rogue was CONVINCED that it was death to them all to proceed any further into that obviously trapped set of rooms...which of course, was untrapped.
Cedric
If any of my players heard me describe something specific on a Knowledge Check of 18 they would have known it was something important though.
If you roll a check, do fairly good and I give you info...it's info you NEED to know. If you roll abyssmal, I'll gladly give you false information.
The party once lost a very nice treasure hoard, cause the rogue was CONVINCED that it was death to them all to proceed any further into that obviously trapped set of rooms...which of course, was untrapped.
Cedric
Tewligan
First Post
Umm, that's pretty much what I was saying. You could pretty well assume that a normal zombie would have some crawlies on it without it being mentioned. However, when worms are specifically mentioned in response to a decent Knowledge check, that might be a hint that these aren't normal zombie-face-worms - they're SPECIAL zombie-face-worms.Nightfall said:Right Tweg, but come on. Undead that have some meat left to them OFTEN have worms. Or maggots. Doesn't always mean they are Scions of Kyuss.
Mordane76
First Post
Well, IIRC, the description of the Scions talks about fat, green, wriggly worms. I can agree that perhaps, if the DM wasn't looking to give out specific combat details for a result of 18, he might have wanted to point out the unnatural appearance of these worms -- still, a Knowledge check for the information he gave them is out there; I don't think Know. Worms will be necessary -- if you've been alive long enough to walk outside after a rainy day, you've seen most forms of the run-of-the-mill nightcrawler, and the description given for the worms on Scions places them in an entirely different category.
With the Know. Religion check, I might have given the player some connection between the general appearance description of the Scions, and the symbol of a religious sect known as the Sons of Kyuss -- a secretive bunch of death-obsessed whack-jobs (those are medieval terms, you know!)
With the Know. Religion check, I might have given the player some connection between the general appearance description of the Scions, and the symbol of a religious sect known as the Sons of Kyuss -- a secretive bunch of death-obsessed whack-jobs (those are medieval terms, you know!)
Arnwyn
First Post
I entirely agree with both Tewiligan, BardStephenFox (great post!), and d4. Like Tewiligan mentioned, I think the DM was trying to subtly imply something by specifically pointing out the worms in response to a Knowledge check. While it was apparently too subtle, I see what he was trying to do.
Further, a result of 18 isn't particularly impressive in 3.0/3.5e. While the general DC is 10+HD (or whatever, I'm at work right now), there should certainly be modifiers for rarity (IMO: +4, +6, +8 or higher). An 18 for a Scion of Kyuss? I wouldn't give much info - but that's just me.
Further, a result of 18 isn't particularly impressive in 3.0/3.5e. While the general DC is 10+HD (or whatever, I'm at work right now), there should certainly be modifiers for rarity (IMO: +4, +6, +8 or higher). An 18 for a Scion of Kyuss? I wouldn't give much info - but that's just me.
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