Player Problem, need advice

likuidice said:
apparently I'm incapable of roleplaying, great.
I do not need a combat every session, I do not live for combats, I have a combat character who, whoopy do, is good at combat, surprisingly because it's built using fighter classes. For some reason this is a problem.

At the start of this thread, I was on DragonLancer's side. However, it has become all too obvious that DL is simply pouting because you won't wear the shackles he demands of you. You "refuse" to see the value of playing that way, when he refuses to see the other side of it.

DragonLancer said:
Ok, then given what you know of the situation, how should I handle it? After all this time, Likuidice knows how we play, and should have settled down. I don’t see what else I can do really, which maintains the type of game we enjoy.

You ask too much of him without giving anything on your end. Accept that your PC group has a trained killer in it's midst and play to that. Stop demanding that he wear YOUR shackles, stop pouting that he won't purposely cripple his character to play to your limits.


Even so, LikuiDice should probably just accept that you and your other players won't ever be happy with an optimized character played to full potential in thier midst, and should find another game group.
 

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Chimera said:
You ask too much of him without giving anything on your end. Accept that your PC group has a trained killer in it's midst and play to that. Stop demanding that he wear YOUR shackles, stop pouting that he won't purposely cripple his character to play to your limits.

This is a gaming group that has been established for 12 years. The only giving that needs to happen is if they are really set on keeping likuidice as a player. As a blunt observation, I think they have given him a two year trial, tried to convey the style that the group prefers and are finding that the newcomer, while an affable guy who is competent with the rules have not been able to integrate the guy with the group's style.

But really, it's not right or wrong on either side. Dragonlancer and the group are not bad people. Likuidice is not a bad person. Though, constantly questioning DM decisions could be problematic in many groups. (Just last night I had a player decide to question how swimming rules work because they weren't convenient for him at the moment. Basically, he wanted a houserule that eliminates the penalties in the book based on his convenience. Aargh, we bogged the game down for 10 minutes because of that. But, I am digressing.) The point is that a stylistic choice is just as valid in this context as being frustrated by a player that wants to play a gunfighter. After all, they have firearms in the Forgotten Realms, so the rules are there. The player should be able to make a gunfighter right? Or a Kender in Greyhawk, or a lighthearted prankster in a near cthulhu-esque game. Yes, the DM can control what characters are allowed, but if you have to constantly say no, or tell the player to rein in the character, you are going to have dissatisfaction by everyone involved.

If the group likes their playing style, should they have to accept a newcomer? Well, of course not. If they like the player and the player refuses to adjust to their playstyle, then the group has to adjust to accept the newcomer, or they have to part ways.

If a player likes the group, but does not appreciate their playstyle, then the player has to change his playstyle or part ways.

Chimera said:
Even so, LikuiDice should probably just accept that you and your other players won't ever be happy with an optimized character played to full potential in thier midst, and should find another game group.

It certainly seems to be the best option at this point doesn't it? Compromise or part ways. It's a shame, but maybe it's for the best?
 

Chimera said:
At the start of this thread, I was on DragonLancer's side. However, it has become all too obvious that DL is simply pouting because you won't wear the shackles he demands of you. You "refuse" to see the value of playing that way, when he refuses to see the other side of it.

The main reason for the post was to gain advice from varoius player and DM's on how to deal with a player who for the last 2 years has been creating characters with the same concept. Yes they have been various classes but all have been built around the simple concept of hack n slash. However that is merely the icing on the cake. It's not that he refuses to see the value of playing "that" way, it's more like he is unable to play "that" way. This has been noted by other GM's as well when he has been asked to play, myself included. Now I would understand blaming DL if he was the only one who felt this way out of the TT team......however 5 out of 6 players feel exactly the same....all with various levels of playing experience.
 

likuidice said:
Apparently I'm incapable of roleplaying, great.

Not my words, but you do seem to play the same sort of personalities over the majority of your characters. Which I don’t mind, so long as it doesn’t cause problems, which so far has not (to my knowledge).
They are often completely untrustworthy (Example: Stewartby from the CoC game), or a fairly negative antihero anti-authority type (Example: Talon from the current game). Sadly, when you play these sort of characters on a regularly basis, I can see where Gnomish Tinker comes from.
But I’ll make it clear here, so far, I have had no problems with your roleplaying but diversity is the spice of life.

I do not need a combat every session, I do not live for combats, I have a combat character who, whoopy do, is good at combat, surprisingly because it's built using fighter classes. For some reason this is a problem.

I do not overshadow the other characters in their niches, is it too much to ask that they don't overshadow me in mine? were they to play combat characters, then there wouldnt be a problem, but for some reason, playing a combat character in a group of non combateers is a big nono. if this was a campaign without any combat, I could see a point to this, but theres been plenty of fights, which have been nicely balanced. quite frankly I don't see a problem with playing a character which is actually useful in a fight.

It’s a problem because, as I have been trying to explain, you are taking it to a level where the rest of us don’t go. You play the rules and not the game – as I have said on more than a few occasions. There’s no problem playing a good fighter, but do you really need to go to extremes with it? True, that level of game is great for some people, just not us and you fail to see why that is causing problems.

Chimera said:
At the start of this thread, I was on DragonLancer's side. However, it has become all too obvious that DL is simply pouting because you won't wear the shackles he demands of you. You "refuse" to see the value of playing that way, when he refuses to see the other side of it.

You ask too much of him without giving anything on your end. Accept that your PC group has a trained killer in it's midst and play to that. Stop demanding that he wear YOUR shackles, stop pouting that he won't purposely cripple his character to play to your limits.

I am not pouting. You can believe that if you want. I am just thinking of the continued lack of enjoyment and fun because of the way that LikuidIce plays. His ubering, and rules arguing, has caused so many complaints over the past two years that I feel something needs to be done. I’ve tried explaining our side, and he won’t listen. I do understand his, but frankly that style of play isn’t fitting to how the group plays. If we started playing that way players would quit.

BardStephenFox said:
This is a gaming group that has been established for 12 years. The only giving that needs to happen is if they are really set on keeping likuidice as a player. As a blunt observation, I think they have given him a two year trial, tried to convey the style that the group prefers and are finding that the newcomer, while an affable guy who is competent with the rules have not been able to integrate the guy with the group's style.

Exactly. We don’t want to lose him, he is a good guy, but the majority has to win out in this situation. If I was forced to DM the game that he likes/wants, I’d quit. Sounds harsh, but I need to have fun as well as the players. I don’t want to run a game like that, I don’t find it enjoyable and neither would the rest of the group.

The Gnomish Tinker said:
It's not that he refuses to see the value of playing "that" way, it's more like he is unable to play "that" way. This has been noted by other GM's as well when he has been asked to play, myself included. Now I would understand blaming DL if he was the only one who felt this way out of the TT team......however 5 out of 6 players feel exactly the same....all with various levels of playing experience.

Just to clarify, the 6th player is Likuidice himself.
Another GM friend of ours, who does not play D&D, has been drawn into arguments with him over the rules. Despite us all telling him that the rules are guidelines, he insists that they are not, and that they must be used as written.

This may have not been the best way to say it, but the last time we spoke I said to him that myself and a couple other players have been playing since at least 1987, and that didn’t he think we had a better understanding of how RPG’s work than he (my point being that he's been in the game for only 2 years)? His response to simply say that that comment was rubbish and irrelevant.

I kind of regret putting my argument that way (I was getting quit annoyed at his lack of understanding/accepting my thoughts), but I think it still holds up.
 

Had a BBQ today before the game, and Likuidice came over. We had a laugh and kinda discussed it. I'm pleased we're still friends over this, and hopefully we can come to a closure that everyone is happy with.
 

DragonLancer said:
Had a BBQ today before the game, and Likuidice came over. We had a laugh and kinda discussed it. I'm pleased we're still friends over this, and hopefully we can come to a closure that everyone is happy with.

let me guess, good maceroni salad and sausage burgers... over those all other problems fade away.
 

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz

Here, the DM allowed a combat monster into a role-play heavy campaign, and is now (among other things) griping that the PC outshines everyone in combat.

Well, technically, no I didn't. No where in the players initial design or background has he ever said that he was going to be a combat-monkey. At low levels everyone is pretty much the same. Its later in the game (7-8th+) that he starts to jump ahead away from everyone else.

Yes you did. You're the DM-the only way a combat monster gets into your campaign is with your permission, either by action or inaction. You control player access to all of the classes and feats.

You don't want a combat monster? Don't allow Great Cleave, or Spring Attack, or Whirlwind Attack, etc.

You don't want a combat monster? No Dragonslayer PrCls, etc.

You don't want a combat monster? Limit PCs to no more than 1/3rd of PC levels in a combat oriented class.

But don't gripe when a combat oriented PC outclasses non-combat oriented PCs in a melee.

Would you complain if your warrior based party suddenly had a mage in the party and he was *gasp* better at spellslinging than anyone else in the party?

I'm not griping. You may may read that but I can with all honesty say that you are wrong there. As has been said, he is not fitting with everyone else in the group, nor with the level of game that we want to play. I posted to ENWorld to get third party advice and views from people I consider well versed in D&D, not to moan and gripe.

That's the way its coming across to me, at least.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
Yes you did. You're the DM-the only way a combat monster gets into your campaign is with your permission, either by action or inaction. You control player access to all of the classes and feats.

You don't want a combat monster? Don't allow Great Cleave, or Spring Attack, or Whirlwind Attack, etc.

You don't want a combat monster? No Dragonslayer PrCls, etc.

You don't want a combat monster? Limit PCs to no more than 1/3rd of PC levels in a combat oriented class.

But don't gripe when a combat oriented PC outclasses non-combat oriented PCs in a melee.

Would you complain if your warrior based party suddenly had a mage in the party and he was *gasp* better at spellslinging than anyone else in the party?



That's the way its coming across to me, at least.

That is definitely not the way it's coming across to me. Creating a "combat monster" is more a state of mind of the player than merely having a bunch of feat/multi-class options available in a game. While any of those feats, in the hands of a player who appreciates the non-powergamed combat style of playing, would not be a problem, in the hands of a player who milks them for all they're worth, they can be trouble.
Cobbling a bunch of limits together for the purpose of reining in one errant player is, again, catering too much to a single player at the expense of the others who use such options more wisely. As I've said before, it's the outlier who should adjust to the rest of the game (or find a better fitting game) and not the game that should adjust to the outlier.
Do not play to the killer in the campaign. It's more likely to drive the 5 of 6 who do appreciate the current style away than it is to form a harmonious group of all of the players.
 

Sorry this is long-winded, but...

While any of those feats, in the hands of a player who appreciates the non-powergamed combat style of playing, would not be a problem, in the hands of a player who milks them for all they're worth, they can be trouble.
Cobbling a bunch of limits together for the purpose of reining in one errant player is, again, catering too much to a single player at the expense of the others who use such options more wisely. As I've said before, it's the outlier who should adjust to the rest of the game (or find a better fitting game) and not the game that should adjust to the outlier.

A player's style has nothing to do with damage dealt. 2 PCs with the same stats, equivalent weapons and the same feats would still be dealing similar combat damage, regardless of the player's style or "wisdom"-its how the math of those feats affects the game. The player wasn't errant- the DM didn't tell him what the campaign's limits were, as you can see below.

In 27 years of gaming, I've constructed all kinds of PCs: min/maxed, suboptimal, high-concept, campaign wreckers, etc. And yes, you're absolutely correct to state that the outlier should adjust to the campaign in general. But if the player isn't aware of the boundaries, he's almost certainly going to violate them.

If the campaign is not supposed to be combat intensive, the DM must set rules that make this obvious. For example, in a campaign in which the PCs were all part of the nobility of an "Eastern" culture, all PCs were required to be skilled in things like poetry or music- even the most warlike character had raised his weaponsmithing skills into an art form. At first, several players chafed- but the PCs in that campaign were well rounded and enjoyable. Many other campaigns in which I have participated (as a player) didn't permit Paladins, and most didn't permit Psionic PCs because of the issues they raise in a campaign. Many have had a rule of no evil PCs for similar reasons. But the rules were always specific and clear.

Dragonlancer's FIRST statement was:

He uses the rules to create the best and most powerful character he can. He has and does, overshadow the others in combat situations. Unfortnately, this isn't how myself or the other 4 players at the time (all of whom I have known longer) like to play. We enjoy the playing and the storytelling, not the uber-gaming of using the rules to make the best character possible.

And he subsequently posted:

He’s only using feats from the 3.5 PHB and one or two from the XPH. In that instance I’m not going to stop him using feats that I have said are fine, and isn’t the problem. He can play a combat character but don’t go ridiculous with it.

(That's like complaining that Jaya Ballard, Embermage, throws too many fire spells, or Fineous Fingers is stealing too many things from the NPCs. Combat characters tend to be optimized for combat!)

In the current campaign everyone is 8th level, and he is playing a Minotaur Fighter/Psion/DragonSlayer.

(In a Dragonlance campaign! What do YOU think a Dragonslayer is going to do in Krynn?)

As I keep saying, playing characters that can pull that off isn't what we want to play, and we don't want to play scenarios based around playing like that.
All emphasis mine.

(If the DM doesn't want to have PCs that can do what this particular PC can do, how did it get in the campaign? DM inaction.)

As BardStephenFox pointed out:
I think part of the situation that is cropping up here with Dragonlancer's group is that they have these implied limits.

We can't look inside the player's mind. Perhaps Likudice saw no combat specialists and thought "They need some serious muscle!" not realizing that the lack of tankage was intentional.

However, I can tell by that Dragonlancer has lost control of his campaign. He may have envisioned a high-fantasy campaign rich in texture and flavor, yet he let a Minotaur Fighter/Psion/DragonSlayer be created in his Dragonlance campaign and is now complaining that it does too much damage in combat!

Unless implied campaign limits are made explicit, there is no reason whatsoever (beyond a particular player's character concept) to design a suboptimal character. Likuidice cannot be expected to limit his PC's potential if there is no explicit rule to make him do so. Why shouldn't Likuidice select a particular feat that would make his Dragonslayer a better slayer of dragons? Why, if his PC has taken Power Attack and Cleave, wouldn't he take Great Cleave?

By the rules, any multiclassing must be approved by the DM, and just because a feat is in print doesn't mean it fits the campaign. It is amazing what "You can't do that." can do for a campaign. If Dragonlancer had simply said- "I think that this (prestige class/feat) would be too unbalancing in this campaign-maybe next time." the problem might never have arisen. Personally, Dragonslayer is one PrCl I'd NEVER allow in Krynn, and psionic PCs in a campaign where psionic NPCs/monsters are rare/nonexistent can be VERY unbalancing.

That said, I offer this suggestion if they don't want to kick this guy out of the group due to the friction that has thus far been generated:

Let the PC die in a blaze of glory against his chosen enemy- a dragon of some kind- leaving behind only some bit of his equipment (that has become enchanted through his use for great deeds). Have someone inspired by him and his actions acquire that equipment, and decide to "take up his mantle," but make sure that the PC thus introduced has a more "political" (or however you define it, Dragonlancer) feel. Make it ABSOLUTELY clear what kind of PC fits the campaign. Proceed to game from there.
 

My group uses the 4d6-L for stat generation. We don't like PB and I don't use much in the way of 3rd party books except for monsters and what I want to use from the setting we play (Dragonlance).



If you don't mind starting another campaign, Just play 1 or 2e characters this time.
 
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