Player Problem, need advice

[hong]

example: the last campaign had an absolute ban on player killing, anyone who killed another character without being dominated etc was instantly shifted to evil and turned into an npc, fine in itself. until two of the other characters took it upon themselves, after an npc asked them to stop my character doing something, to assassinate my character. I'm annoyed, but expecting the offending characters to be npc'd as per the house rule we all agreed on. not only did the characters get very little happen to them as a result, they were actually rewarded for the act! this situation broke two of the rules we agreed on, no player killing, and any overtly evil act would result in being npc'd, with no repurcussions. I still have little faith in Dragonlancers judgement calls because of this.

Then leave.

Dragonlancer's posts here and in other threads have convinced me that he's a railroading DM with a thing for control. He'll deny it, of course; it's "all about the story", or "maintaining verisimilitude", or some other standard line. Whatever; I get the feeling a lot of players would have the screaming heebie-jeebies if they found themselves in his game.

At the same time, he's found a group that works for him, and you're not fitting in. I suspect the problems described here are just a symptom of more basic personality conflicts; you guys just don't get along for whatever reason. Maybe you have a generally stubborn and obstinate personality, which combined with a DM who doesn't like being contradicted is guaranteed to cause trouble. Or maybe you grandstand too much for everyone's liking (I've seen both these problems in players before). You can say that stuff like what you've just described is blatant favouritism or unfair DMing, and maybe it is. In the end though, if everyone else around the table thinks you're an annoying prat, don't expect much in the way of sympathy.

It happens. Accept it, and move on.

 

[Darklone]

Another vote for the "fit in or leave", without any interpretations or accusations.

I've left groups where I caused similar problems and I kicked players out who caused similar problems.

Or I adapted to a group who played differently. I didn't have a player yet who adapted to my group but I hope this is caused by the strict guidelines the group has for new members joining... OTOH, I may as well be a railroading DM with a penchant for control. Who cares? Game on.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

I suggest you too find new group if possible. Your problem doesn't seem to resolve this way. I woudn't like you friend as DM, and I would leave. I have good friends whose rpg-style doesn't fit mine and I don't play with them anymore.

If other players are siding with DM you are pretty much alone in your need for different playing style. They are not going to change, if they haven't for 2 years. You might, but ask yourself, would that be fun.


If this group is your only possibility to play and these little issues aren't really that bad, just continue on.

However, real problem might not be so called power game. You certainly don't seem to be doing that, and I know because I love to min-max myself. Perhaps you like to play antisocial characters, loners, criminals or unfriendly mercenary types. If so, this might well be the real problem. Your fellow players might not like your foul attitude and your lack of heroic attitude. Or perhaps they prefer such characters and you try to be heroic. In such cases your melee-power might indeed be seen a threat in balancancing the cold war of character attitudes.

 

[DragonLancer]

"and everyone is there to have fun, not to min/max a character" min maxing a character is something I find fun.

Yes, you do, but no one else at the table does. They don’t want to play characters that pull off the high AC and damage that you can do. That’s not a dig at your min/maxing its (as I keep say, and no one is listening) that playing to that isn’t what the others want. We shouldn’t have to accommodate something that the rest of us don’t want. We are happy with how we play.

what I find amusing about this situation is the lack of bending from the rest of the group, I have toned down my characters to fit the group, but they are not willing to work a little toward my play style, I must cater to them, with no corresponding change in their play style to allow mine. it all seems very one sided.

This is going to sound harsh, and perhaps rightly so, but why should we? The other players do not want to play to your style and they shouldn’t have to. That’s kinda the point. That’s why I raised this, not to have a dig at you but to try and find advice to fit you in better.

the dwarven defender that was retired was capable of an ac of high 30s, but only while fighting a single giant, using max expertise, fighting defensively, dodging, in a defensive stance and possibly standing on one leg under a full moon. under normal circumstances his ac was 26 or 27, hardly gamebreaking for a class based around being a defender.

But even outside of giant fighting…etc, you were still pulling off AC’s of early 30’s which the rest of us felt was excessive for a character of 8th/9th level. And we never said that it was gamebreaking.

the ranger that just died was using the two weapon feat chain, and the instant knee jerk reaction was that 4 attacks at 7th level was totally over the top. despite the fact that his damage output sucked, he rarely hit anything, and it was a cool fighting style.

Unless I missed something over the time you had that character, no one complained at all. In fact he was quite a popular character as far as I could tell. He was a character that fitted in well. So don’t make something out of it that it wasn’t.

example: the last campaign had an absolute ban on player killing, anyone who killed another character without being dominated etc was instantly shifted to evil and turned into an npc, fine in itself. until two of the other characters took it upon themselves, after an npc asked them to stop my character doing something, to assassinate my character. I'm annoyed, but expecting the offending characters to be npc'd as per the house rule we all agreed on. not only did the characters get very little happen to them as a result, they were actually rewarded for the act! this situation broke two of the rules we agreed on, no player killing, and any overtly evil act would result in being npc'd, with no repurcussions. I still have little faith in Dragonlancers judgement calls because of this.

Ok, let me explain something. One thing as DM I use in my games is repercussions of actions, and in this instance your character (sort of) deserved what he got.

The character was a Pychic Warrior (I forget what you had multiclassed with) part of an order called the Colourless Lodge (If Thoughts Could Kill module), he and one of his superiors had been picked by a powerful psionic artifact that allowed any of 7 psionic individuals who managed to reach it, the ability to change an aspect of how psionics worked (change schools, make things easier for specific races to use psionics…etc, you get the idea). Likuidice’s character decided that (in order to try and stop a group of mages hunting down psion’s) he wanted to change a school of psionics so that it didn’t mirror magical spells as much (correct me, but I think that’s what you decided).
Now, what he did was try to get the NPC mage who was flying (wands of fly) them to the site where they thought the artifact was located, to leave his superior behind so that she couldn’t oppose him changing it. The mage was shocked and let the rest of the party know what he had requested. Now the superior was quite concerned that her life may be in danger (which I think was not a big leap of imagination for her) and asked one of the other characters to deal with him (whether she meant tie up for the duration or kill was never discussed).
During a fight in a side corridor away from the main body of the party, he was jumped by this character and another. They actually dropped him, but didn’t kill him. They assumed him dead, and used a Gate Cube to roll his body onto the plane of Acheron. Unfortunately, my plans to bring him back as a potential villain later in the campaign seeking revenge didn’t take shape as the campaign picked up speed towards its conclusion.

It was an act of repercussion on the part of the NPC via me as DM.

When I have said that I don’t agree with PC’s killing PC’s its because all too often I have seen (and not in my group) characters kill each other for treasure they wanted that went to someone else or some such other situation that wasn’t appropriate. Such actions spoil the game for the deceased character’s player and wastes gaming time for everyone else.

But this situation was justifiable because they had no idea what his plans where if he got to the artifact and could make changes.

And to throw wood on the fire, the next character Likuidice made, came in with the in intention of killing one of the other characters who hadn’t done the act after he was raised from the dead, as retribution. Anyone say metagaming? I did put a stop to that, for the sake of the game.

Dragonlancer's posts here and in other threads have convinced me that he's a railroading DM with a thing for control. He'll deny it, of course;

I am going to deny it. You obviously have not read what I have posted through this thread. I’m sure even Likuidice would agree that I’m not a railroader in anyway shape or form.

At the same time, he's found a group that works for him, and you're not fitting in. I suspect the problems described here are just a symptom of more basic personality conflicts; you guys just don't get along for whatever reason. Maybe you have a generally stubborn and obstinate personality, which combined with a DM who doesn't like being contradicted is guaranteed to cause trouble. Or maybe you grandstand too much for everyone's liking (I've seen both these problems in players before). You can say that stuff like what you've just described is blatant favouritism or unfair DMing, and maybe it is. In the end though, if everyone else around the table thinks you're an annoying prat, don't expect much in the way of sympathy.

It is true that Likuidice’s attitude and personality have caused conflicts in-and outside of the game, with at least two of the players. I’m not going to get into a bashing contest because even with that because everyone is still friends. But I don’t think this has much to do with the fitting in problem. It has been inflamed by his arguing over rules and trivial game matters.

 

[Arnwyn]

Cryptic… Who do you think he is?

I think it's Raynestaxidermy. Am I right, or way out to lunch?

 

[derverdammte]

From what I can tell, you have no communication skills whatsoever (case in point: you have completely and utterly failed to communicate the actual problem over a seven-page thread, instead choosing to pointlessly whinge about your "problem" player), and you have less than no control over your players (based on the example of play you just gave). It's too bad that you've been playing for "over a decade" with players who will smile and wink at your shortcomings as a DM. So now you run into a player who hasn't been taught to overlook your weaknesses and you're whining about it on the internet. Just be a man and kick him out if you're too lame to handle his playing style.

 

[Darklone]

Guess that could have been said more polite?

 

[billd91]

what I find amusing about this situation is the lack of bending from the rest of the group, I have toned down my characters to fit the group, but they are not willing to work a little toward my play style, I must cater to them, with no corresponding change in their play style to allow mine. it all seems very one sided.

Welcome to democracy. The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. Yadda yadda.
When you're looking at a 5 to 1 split, then it is pretty one-sided. A closer split or something as important as being an actual government might be a call for more pluralism. But for something as unimportant as a game, you might as well resign yourself to the fact that as the single outlier, you are the one who has to change or cut losses and find a different group with a more compatible style of play.

 

[Arnwyn]

Guess that could have been said more polite?

Meh. There are a couple of posters who get on these "player vs. DM" threads and clearly show their lack of social skills - these people can be clearly picked out based on previous threads. EN World has a few such notables. (Sometimes I wonder how they manage to get by in real life, much less a messageboard...)

 

[DragonLancer]

I think it's Raynestaxidermy. Am I right, or way out to lunch?

Got it in one.

From what I can tell, you have no communication skills whatsoever (case in point: you have completely and utterly failed to communicate the actual problem over a seven-page thread, instead choosing to pointlessly whinge about your "problem" player), and you have less than no control over your players (based on the example of play you just gave). It's too bad that you've been playing for "over a decade" with players who will smile and wink at your shortcomings as a DM. So now you run into a player who hasn't been taught to overlook your weaknesses and you're whining about it on the internet. Just be a man and kick him out if you're too lame to handle his playing style.

And from what I can tell, you either haven’t read what I’ve said or are just trying to start an argument.

Over 7 pages I have repeatedly said that the problem is play style. what more do you want to know? He wants to play a game where the style is that presented as standard in the core books, and the rest of the group wants to play a game thats toned down from that, and its a case of you can't accomdate both and keep everyone happen. Thats the problem. Five of us who like to play the game in certain way, and one who doesn’t, and that one is has drawn complaints from the other players, not just myself. I posted on here to try and get some advice how to handle this split, but all I have got (with some exceptions, and thankyou to those posters) is a lot of hocky about how its my fault, that I’m a bad DM for not letting the player do what he wants, instead of helpful words to get the group back together again.
Try reading my posts!

I have faults, I don’t say otherwise. No one is perfect.

Admittedly Likuidice hasn’t done anything to help the situation, being just as negative as you have been. He could have put forward something helpful and hasn’t.

Meh. There are a couple of posters who get on these "player vs. DM" threads and clearly show their lack of social skills - these people can be clearly picked out based on previous threads. EN World has a few such notables. (Sometimes I wonder how they manage to get by in real life, much less a messageboard...)

I've noticed. I'm seriously regretting having come here for intelligent advice. So much for the great ENWorld.