Players getting cocky (4e)

[Rekka360]

Just make sure they're on the same page. Maybe they don't care about interesting characters. Maybe they like being swaggering badasses.

I've got no problem with them swaggering really, the issue for me when I think of the narrative of the campaign is that these characters need to be tested by fire as it were, if they are really going to take on the Twisted Rune, which is no small task. I think Ravenloft is a great setting, and after months in the desert I think they would like a little change of scenery. If they hate it, we'll head back to FR, easy enough.

I guess my first post made me sound like an DM, however, my prime concern every game session is that everyone at the table has fun, and so far, everyone has.

 

[MrMyth]

I don't think there is anything wrong with working to challenge a skill group of PCs. But you do need to be careful about pulling them completely into a different setting and completely uprooting the rules on them. If you think your players will get into it, then by all means go for it! But if you just want to find a way to keep them on their toes, there are other less extreme approaches that won't be as potentially dangerous.

 

[Janx]

I've got no problem with them swaggering really, the issue for me when I think of the narrative of the campaign is that these characters need to be tested by fire as it were, if they are really going to take on the Twisted Rune, which is no small task. I think Ravenloft is a great setting, and after months in the desert I think they would like a little change of scenery. If they hate it, we'll head back to FR, easy enough.

I guess my first post made me sound like an DM, however, my prime concern every game session is that everyone at the table has fun, and so far, everyone has.

I'm glad you see that your original statements did sound a bit extreme.

But let's break this new statement down a bit.

taking on the Twisted Rune is no small task. Check.
characters needed to be tested by fire. Check.
months in desert, need a change in scenery. Check.

Ravenloft isn't a change of scenery, it's a total shift in campaign focus.
Furthermore, it's designed to NOT let PCs go. Therefore, letting them go (which their first instinct should be "how do we escape") is going to look forced.

Nextly, assuming your PCs are hot on the trail of this Twisted Rune, why are you trying to send them into something completely unrelated? It's bad storytelling, bad pacing, and disruptive to game momentum. I'm not saying you couldn't find a way to make Ravenloft tied in to this Twisted Rune (I have no clue what it is, but I assume it's a BBEG), but why take chances?

Let your PCs pick the goal and direction, and you determine the obstacles and complications to that goal. Putting some random dungeon crawl in the middle of all that is just wasting their time and inflicting your whim on the players.

Also consider this "tested by fire" idea. Shouldn't the quest to defeat the Twisted Rune BE the trial by fire. Shouldn't the 3 or 4 things the party has to face before they are able to confront the BBEG be the trial?

What you will get out of Ravenloft is Lost, Dead, or Screwed up characters that will then pretty much cancel the quest for the Twisted Rune.

Don't change the direction of the campaign, unless you truly want to change the direction of the campaign. Be especially mindful of doing so when the players are actively pursuing goals in the game.

 

[billd91]

Ravenloft has a bed reputation precisely because so many of its modules did one or several of the following:


Pulled players in to Ravenloft from some other setting (usually FR) without their prior consent or knowledge. If someone shows up psyched to play high fantasy and is thrown into gothic horror against their will, it generally won't sit well.

Introduce arbitrary mechanics to deny players of their abilities. Most infamous are a number of modules which saw all the players be killed in the very beginning before being cloned by evil beings in new bodies, but without equipment, and thereafter forced to do the bidding of the creature who cloned them. But many, many others took less extreme, but still problematic routes, like mists or auras which deprived players of their powers or deprived them of their items, or threw them into dungeons without equipment.

Over the top grimdarkness with little real subtlety, in a mistaken belief that cranking up the gore to 11 and using a color pallette out of a Tim Burton movie=scary.


When handled well, Ravenloft can be great. But thats true of nearly every aspect of RPGs. More often than not, however, Ravenloft is handled badly, which is why you tend to find a lot of detractors out there.

The whole lack of subtlety thing is particularly important. One of the hallmarks of early Ravenloft stuff was a recommendation to be more subtle, at least with certain descriptions. No "you're attacked by an ogre" but "the massive brute lashes out with a large sinewy hand".

Early adventures and materials are actually pretty good. But as time went on, weirder and weirder things got stirred into the pot including lightning blasted alien landscapes and module plots that would be more suited to the late night cheesy movie show hosted by some costumed fan of shlock horror movies (our own local version was Lenny's Inferno hosted by Mr. Mephisto). Most negative rep probably stems from the later days of the original product line.

 

[Argyle King]

You may be surprised to find that Ravenloft won't help you at all. I only say this because I currently play in a game where the DM had the party encounter Strahd, and we totally stomped him -even with him having other creatures with him to help. Eventually, the DM simply had him turn into mist form and flee because he felt it was too anticlimactic to have us win so easily. The funny thing is that we still almost prevented him from getting away in mist form, and he barely escaped.

The party now has vowed to find Strahd's coffin and finish him off because some of the party feels cheated out of their kill.

 

[renau1g]

If you really want to mess with them here's my recommendation:

Put as many of these as your XP budget for an n+4 will allow you, then have them fly about 20 squares up to catch the PC's in the aura, but for the most part prevent counterattacks. With the new rules with aura stacking if you get 6 or 7 of them in a group, that's 30-35 fire damage/round. Unless they have fire resistance (all of them) then the harpies can sit up there and laugh as the PC's burn below. They'll be retreating after round 2 for sure

Bloodfire Harpy
Medium fey humanoid
Level 9 Soldier XP 400

Initiative +10 Senses Perception +11
Burning Song (Fire) aura 20; enemies within the aura at the start of their turns take 5 fire damage (deafened creatures are immune).

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Horror, done well, requires that players WANT to be scared....

...just like one can only hypnotize someone who WANTS to be hypnotized.




Ravenloft done well requires players who want horror. Ravenloft done campy is "thriller fantasy". Ravenloft done punitively is "dm fiat pwning players".



Horror is HARD to do well. Horror done without engagement on either the part of the DM or ALL the players is not horror...it's slasher/whiny emo/camp/dm fiat pwning/d&d without rules/gothic fantasy...or any number of other things.



To the OP... your multiple posts show that you are not a "lamewad punitive dm"....I get that you want to challenge your players...that the cockyness is a problem because they crave challenge... BUT your reasoning I do take exception with. Their cockiness has NOTHING to do with the need or desire for a genre change.


I'll say that again, as it's my most important point...I see how you want to quell their cockiness and "put them in their place"...a place of heroes, but not unbeatable heroes. BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A GENRE CHANGE.

So, if for ENTIRELY SEPARATE REASONS you want to engage in Ravenloft storytelling, by all means...but if it's to keelhaul them? No. As several posters before me have said, you can easily keelhaul them within the genre you and they have (perhaps quite inovertly) socially contracterd to play within.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Its been said that "Pride goeth before a fall."

One of the best ways to "de-cocky" players- in a FUN way- is to give them a challenge that they thought was easy that turns into a ball...oon...buster.

Exhibit 1: Tucker's Kobolds.

An encounter like this starts off deceptively easy, then becomes annoying...then turns into "OH S#$^#$%@T- WE GONNA DIE!!!"

The goal isn't a TPK or to "teach them a lesson" (though, properly done, one will be taught), but to challenge the PCs hard enough that when they finally succeed, they feel a genuine sense of achievement.

If you look in my sig for the link to Campaign Ideas, I recently posted about a dangerous pathway video Its a perfect place to set up this kind of encounter. They start fighting the odd small patrol of Kobolds, maybe a couple of snipers...then as they continue to advance with moderate increases in difficulty, their foes spring the trap.

The party is on the surface, yes, but their path has taken them to an area riddled with tunnel openings- they're right over the center of a huge Kobold warren. Their path of retreat is cut off. Around them pop up dozens of the critters...and then somePC notices that they're not advancing because they're waiting for the deadfall (or seige engine or boiling oil or...) to be released on the party...

When the party gets through an encounter like this and hits the nearest town, the NPCs there will look at their scars and battle damage and say "You came through WHAT pass?"

 

[Jeffrey]

Now their walking the streets of Calimport with some swagger feeling unstoppable and I think its high time I brought this frame of mind crashing down around them like flaming timbers.


Why? It's not their fault that your encounters have been too easy. Why punish them (unless you like to play a "DM against the players" type of game)? Why not simply learn from this opportunity and take a look at the encounters you have been throwing at them and make adjustments.

Just because they are doing well, it does not mean that you are losing.

 

[Rechan]

The players are cocky because they've stomped everything you've thrown at them in a fight.

You respond by changing the scenery, tone, and direction of the campaign.

Are the players going to no longer be fighting things? Because that's the source of their cockiness.

If they're still fighting and you're not changing your tactics, then the only difference is that they're stomping things in a different setting.

Either the fights get harder, or they need to face things that can't be beaten by punching them in the face.