Player's Handbook 2: I haz it

[Lord Sessadore]

Hmm, it seems I may have been premature in saying that fighters are/will be the only sticky defenders, haha.

It sounds like one could even argue that the warden is even stickier than the fighter, since it sounds like you're saying most of their stickiness doesn't depend on hitting, like the fighter.

Very interesting, in any case. I'm very tempted to try out a warden sometime ... if the avenger hadn't already stolen my heart *dreamy look*.

 

[Cadfan]

The warden may be a better defender than a fighter.

Who can be marked:
Fighter: anyone attacked
Warden: anyone adjacent

Enemy is adjacent, and attacks your ally.
Fighter: Basic melee attack.
Warden: Special attack v reflex that causes the enemy to grant combat advantage.

Enemy is adjacent, and uses a move action to leave to attack your ally.
Fighter: Opportunity attack with bonus equal to wisdom that causes the enemy to stop moving. Enemy may move again with its standard action without penalty, and may use that opportunity to charge.
Warden: Opportunity attack. If the enemy is within Reach 2, and the warden is wielding a reach weapon or has a certain paragon feat, may also make the special attack versus reflex that grants combat advantage. If not, and if enemy is within 5, pull the enemy back into melee reach.

Enemy is adjacent and shifts one space away in order to attack ally.
Fighter: Basic melee attack when enemy shifts.
Warden: If wielding a non reach weapon, the warden is screwed. If wielding a reach weapon, gets his special attack versus reflex that causes the enemy to grant combat advantage. At paragon tier may take a feat that lets him shift a space before making this attack, giving him the benefits of a reach weapon without a reach weapon, or giving him extra effective reach.

Its a fine line to decide who's best, but there's a lot to recommend the warden.

 

[chando]

I agree with all the lasts posts here. The warden can get a little sticky(not has much has the fighter, but is something) and can function pretty much in similar ways to the fighter.(especially with the feat that add slow on OA) The fighter has a bonus when enemies use the "shift+charge" to get away, but then the Warden's Grasp can slide the target either to flanking(or easy future flanking) or back to the warden if close.

Not has good has getting a attack when it shift, but good enough. In other situations, they are pretty comparable, except when the enemy teleports or something, in witch case the warden can at least use Warden's grasp to do something, while the fighter does nothing vs nonadjacent enemies marked.

Their attacks also tend to create dificult terrain or slow enemies more often also. We have to wait until the Primal Power book so that the warden has more or less the same number of options has the fighter, but I say they can be pretty close defenders in play.

Even if in the end the fighter does menage to be better, the warden seems to turns out to be more dynamic and FUN to play, witch is a major selling point. really, Villains menace or Come Back Strike are nice, but the Polymorphs with nice bonuses AND a nice attack on top of it seems better IMHO. comparable to stances in some ways, but more fun most of the time.

All I know is that I'm going to build a shifter warden as soon as I get my copy of the PHB2. Maybe a dwarf or half-orc. (as well as a half-orc barbarian I'm planing )

 

[ppaladin123]

The warden may be a better defender than a fighter.

Who can be marked:
Fighter: anyone attacked
Warden: anyone adjacent

Enemy is adjacent, and attacks your ally.
Fighter: Basic melee attack.
Warden: Special attack v reflex that causes the enemy to grant combat advantage.

Enemy is adjacent, and uses a move action to leave to attack your ally.
Fighter: Opportunity attack with bonus equal to wisdom that causes the enemy to stop moving. Enemy may move again with its standard action without penalty, and may use that opportunity to charge.
Warden: Opportunity attack. If the enemy is within Reach 2, and the warden is wielding a reach weapon or has a certain paragon feat, may also make the special attack versus reflex that grants combat advantage. If not, and if enemy is within 5, pull the enemy back into melee reach.

Enemy is adjacent and shifts one space away in order to attack ally.
Fighter: Basic melee attack when enemy shifts.
Warden: If wielding a non reach weapon, the warden is screwed. If wielding a reach weapon, gets his special attack versus reflex that causes the enemy to grant combat advantage. At paragon tier may take a feat that lets him shift a space before making this attack, giving him the benefits of a reach weapon without a reach weapon, or giving him extra effective reach.

Its a fine line to decide who's best, but there's a lot to recommend the warden.

The warden also has an at-will power that slows the target. If I played one I'd probably use that quite often to up "stickiness."

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Very interesting; thanks for the breakdown, Cadfan. If I'm not mistaken, the warden's stickiness abilities don't inflict damage though, correct? That is a bit of an important distinction to make between warden and fighter, but I think I agree that (at least on paper), a warden with reach 2 is in most cases 'stickier' than a fighter. That's kind of cool

 

[ppaladin123]

I also think that the human warden will be the king of saving throws since:

He gets one free at the beginning of his turn (and thus can use it against the stunned, dominated, dazed conditions, etc. if they are save ends) Martial characters have to wait until epic to get that ability with the feat "martial resolve."

At heroic tier he gets a feat that gives him +2 untyped to any other saving throws during his round if he succeeds on that first "free" one.

At paragon tier he gets +1 untyped to that "free" saving throw through a feat.

Now add in the human feats stubborn survivor and human perseverance and you have a base +2 to your free saving throw or +4 if you are out of action points. That is before any item bonuses. 75% chance to shake off a stun before it actually affects you sounds good to me.

Take the dreadnought paragon path...free action: take 10 damage and end any condition a save can end (note can't take free actions if dominated or dazed but can use your free warden save). You'll be nigh unstoppable.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

That is definitely true. I considered playing a warden simply for the double saves feature, it sounds downright awesome. (Note: my paladin PC is currently embroiled in a fight which he has spent only one round not-blinded, because of a stupid 'save ends' blindness condition ...)

 

[CubeKnight]

That is definitely true. I considered playing a warden simply for the double saves feature, it sounds downright awesome. (Note: my paladin PC is currently embroiled in a fight which he has spent only one round not-blinded, because of a stupid 'save ends' blindness condition ...)

I hear your pain. My Swordmage got blasted by a White Dragon's Breath Weapon on the first round, and spent 5 rounds weakened and slowed. By the time he saved, there was a single enemy left.

 

[Cadfan]

Very interesting; thanks for the breakdown, Cadfan. If I'm not mistaken, the warden's stickiness abilities don't inflict damage though, correct? That is a bit of an important distinction to make between warden and fighter, but I think I agree that (at least on paper), a warden with reach 2 is in most cases 'stickier' than a fighter. That's kind of cool

His retaliatory strike when you hit his allies does damage. Its slightly better than the fighters, because he can use it against non adjacent foes, it targets reflex, and it penalizes the target for a round.

 

[Matt James]

Double Post