D&D 5E Players Killing Players for stupid reason

[RickTheFox]

I have a question from a players perspective...

Background -
I am a young noble wizard, very reasonable, very polite, help if I can but I do not cry when I cant kind of guy. The wizard, being noble but poor, is trying hard to build a reputation among foreign nobility and start business with mead and so on. The one fault this character has is he pays back what he gets, often many-fold. You help him? He helps you. You give him something he needs worth 10 gp? He gives you easily something you need worth 100 gp later. But why is this a fault? Because if you betray him, attack him, or harm him (or his wife, another PC) he can become your worst nightmare, working hard and silently to undo you. In the character sheet, there is literally "polite, patient, VENGEFUL" with all caps.

In the game, this created a few funny scenarios - an accomplished wizard NPC insulted me (deeply and it was uncalled for), so I smiled, bowed my head and left. Planned it. Took my time, so no connection could be made. And I broke into his house, drugged him to sleep and put him in his bed, changed my appearance to look like him and went partying like mad, insulting people wearing his face, damaging his reputation heavily and then disappearing without a trace, leaving empty bottles by his side and locking the house from the inside. It also created a few dark moments - some humanoid monsters attacked me, so I burned their whole village down (I think kids included).

This is still a low level game, around 5 lvl (9 months of gaming or so), and our party is not very well established (no strong bonds between characters, they worked together out of immediate need only).

The problem -
For some reason, our party got mind-shuffled - my mind is in someone elses body and another member of the party has my body (not swapped, shuffled). The PC who has my wizards body is normally a female rogue. Now she wants to go to a noble and important ball in my male noble body (with hard-worked-for reputation) dressed in revealing womens clothes and apples in bra and totally ridicule me. The PCs argued about it, but she would not be stopped, persuaded, or prevented from going.

As a Player, I think it is out of character of her rogue and I do not get it even though she is chaotic, but I agree that it is kinda hilarious. However, as a PC... this is a direct attack at me, aimed to destroy my image, my reputation, my business dealings. It will ridicule me among noble cirlces - no one will take me seriously in that town ever again. It is also a great insult, and worse - coming from a friendly party member without any provocation, it is certainly a hard-felt betrayal.

So, I believe this could only result in my wizard smiling, working hard to get my body back, and then hiring some thugs to kill her after giving her poisoned wine. As a player, I can not think of any reason for my PC not to do it, or of anything else my PC would do. I think she (player) does not expect it, and it would come as a great surprise to her, but my PC is a sneaky noble after all (with hardly any direct damage spell, I play utility mostly) and I do not want to give her a chance to meta-out-of-it. I did give her hints and fore-warnings though (pc-pc). Almost begged her (player-player) not to do it.

I feel my hand is forced and I can only react to what she is doing, in a very consistent and predictable response I have demonstrated in the game many times over. Not reacting with vengeance would not make sense given the PC I have.

So let me ask you guys... What should I do? Do you think player-kill is justified in this case? How should I do it (never done it, suggestions?)

Or... am I the bad guy? (understand a jerk and a bad player). Write soon, next session approaching. Thanks.

 

[Dire Bare]

I have a question from a players perspective...

Background -
I am a young noble wizard, very reasonable, very polite, help if I can but I do not cry when I cant kind of guy. The wizard, being noble but poor, is trying hard to build a reputation among foreign nobility and start business with mead and so on. The one fault this character has is he pays back what he gets, often many-fold. You help him? He helps you. You give him something he needs worth 10 gp? He gives you easily something you need worth 100 gp later. But why is this a fault? Because if you betray him, attack him, or harm him (or his wife, another PC) he can become your worst nightmare, working hard and silently to undo you. In the character sheet, there is literally "polite, patient, VENGEFUL" with all caps.

In the game, this created a few funny scenarios - an accomplished wizard NPC insulted me (deeply and it was uncalled for), so I smiled, bowed my head and left. Planned it. Took my time, so no connection could be made. And I broke into his house, drugged him to sleep and put him in his bed, changed my appearance to look like him and went partying like mad, insulting people wearing his face, damaging his reputation heavily and then disappearing without a trace, leaving empty bottles by his side and locking the house from the inside. It also created a few dark moments - some humanoid monsters attacked me, so I burned their whole village down (I think kids included).

This is still a low level game, around 5 lvl (9 months of gaming or so), and our party is not very well established (no strong bonds between characters, they worked together out of immediate need only).

The problem -
For some reason, our party got mind-shuffled - my mind is in someone elses body and another member of the party has my body (not swapped, shuffled). The PC who has my wizards body is normally a female rogue. Now she wants to go to a noble and important ball in my male noble body (with hard-worked-for reputation) dressed in revealing womens clothes and apples in bra and totally ridicule me. The PCs argued about it, but she would not be stopped, persuaded, or prevented from going.

As a Player, I think it is out of character of her rogue and I do not get it even though she is chaotic, but I agree that it is kinda hilarious. However, as a PC... this is a direct attack at me, aimed to destroy my image, my reputation, my business dealings. It will ridicule me among noble cirlces - no one will take me seriously in that town ever again. It is also a great insult, and worse - coming from a friendly party member without any provocation, it is certainly a hard-felt betrayal.

So, I believe this could only result in my wizard smiling, working hard to get my body back, and then hiring some thugs to kill her after giving her poisoned wine. As a player, I can not think of any reason for my PC not to do it, or of anything else my PC would do. I think she (player) does not expect it, and it would come as a great surprise to her, but my PC is a sneaky noble after all (with hardly any direct damage spell, I play utility mostly) and I do not want to give her a chance to meta-out-of-it. I did give her hints and fore-warnings though (pc-pc). Almost begged her (player-player) not to do it.

I feel my hand is forced and I can only react to what she is doing, in a very consistent and predictable response I have demonstrated in the game many times over. Not reacting with vengeance would not make sense given the PC I have.

So let me ask you guys... What should I do? Do you think player-kill is justified in this case? How should I do it (never done it, suggestions?)

Or... am I the bad guy? (understand a jerk and a bad player). Write soon, next session approaching. Thanks.

This scenario sounds very juvenile. When you create a character with traits that allow you to be a jerk (or worse) . . . you're just being a jerk (or worse). I wouldn't play long in a game with someone behaving like you are. I'm not impressed with the rogue's player either, although they may be acting out of frustration with how you are playing your character.

 

[iserith]

So, I believe this could only result in my wizard smiling, working hard to get my body back, and then hiring some thugs to kill her after giving her poisoned wine. As a player, I can not think of any reason for my PC not to do it, or of anything else my PC would do. I think she (player) does not expect it, and it would come as a great surprise to her, but my PC is a sneaky noble after all (with hardly any direct damage spell, I play utility mostly) and I do not want to give her a chance to meta-out-of-it. I did give her hints and fore-warnings though (pc-pc). Almost begged her (player-player) not to do it.

I feel my hand is forced and I can only react to what she is doing, in a very consistent and predictable response I have demonstrated in the game many times over. Not reacting with vengeance would not make sense given the PC I have.

So let me ask you guys... What should I do? Do you think player-kill is justified in this case? How should I do it (never done it, suggestions?)

Or... am I the bad guy? (understand a jerk and a bad player). Write soon, next session approaching. Thanks.

The goals of play for the game are (1) everyone has fun and (2) an exciting, memorable story is created by playing.

While you say you don't see this as being in character for the rogue (which is none of your business in my view, but never mind), you do seem to think it's "hilarious." So, you're having fun by the sounds of it. Will the rogue's player have fun if you hire NPCs to kill the rogue? If the rogue survives the encounter, will you and the rest of the group have fun with whatever tit-for-tat may occur in the aftermath? Will any of this help create an exciting, memorable story by playing?

If the answer is "No" or "I don't know" to any of these questions, then I suggest you don't do it. You are responsible for the group achieving the goals of play. Choose what you do accordingly.

 

[Flamestrike]

I have a question from a players perspective...

Background -
I am a young noble wizard, very reasonable, very polite, help if I can but I do not cry when I cant kind of guy. The wizard, being noble but poor, is trying hard to build a reputation among foreign nobility and start business with mead and so on. The one fault this character has is he pays back what he gets, often many-fold. You help him? He helps you. You give him something he needs worth 10 gp? He gives you easily something you need worth 100 gp later. But why is this a fault? Because if you betray him, attack him, or harm him (or his wife, another PC) he can become your worst nightmare, working hard and silently to undo you. In the character sheet, there is literally "polite, patient, VENGEFUL" with all caps.

In the game, this created a few funny scenarios - an accomplished wizard NPC insulted me (deeply and it was uncalled for), so I smiled, bowed my head and left. Planned it. Took my time, so no connection could be made. And I broke into his house, drugged him to sleep and put him in his bed, changed my appearance to look like him and went partying like mad, insulting people wearing his face, damaging his reputation heavily and then disappearing without a trace, leaving empty bottles by his side and locking the house from the inside. It also created a few dark moments - some humanoid monsters attacked me, so I burned their whole village down (I think kids included).

This is still a low level game, around 5 lvl (9 months of gaming or so), and our party is not very well established (no strong bonds between characters, they worked together out of immediate need only).

The problem -
For some reason, our party got mind-shuffled - my mind is in someone elses body and another member of the party has my body (not swapped, shuffled). The PC who has my wizards body is normally a female rogue. Now she wants to go to a noble and important ball in my male noble body (with hard-worked-for reputation) dressed in revealing womens clothes and apples in bra and totally ridicule me. The PCs argued about it, but she would not be stopped, persuaded, or prevented from going.

As a Player, I think it is out of character of her rogue and I do not get it even though she is chaotic, but I agree that it is kinda hilarious. However, as a PC... this is a direct attack at me, aimed to destroy my image, my reputation, my business dealings. It will ridicule me among noble cirlces - no one will take me seriously in that town ever again. It is also a great insult, and worse - coming from a friendly party member without any provocation, it is certainly a hard-felt betrayal.

So, I believe this could only result in my wizard smiling, working hard to get my body back, and then hiring some thugs to kill her after giving her poisoned wine. As a player, I can not think of any reason for my PC not to do it, or of anything else my PC would do. I think she (player) does not expect it, and it would come as a great surprise to her, but my PC is a sneaky noble after all (with hardly any direct damage spell, I play utility mostly) and I do not want to give her a chance to meta-out-of-it. I did give her hints and fore-warnings though (pc-pc). Almost begged her (player-player) not to do it.

I feel my hand is forced and I can only react to what she is doing, in a very consistent and predictable response I have demonstrated in the game many times over. Not reacting with vengeance would not make sense given the PC I have.

So let me ask you guys... What should I do? Do you think player-kill is justified in this case? How should I do it (never done it, suggestions?)

Or... am I the bad guy? (understand a jerk and a bad player). Write soon, next session approaching. Thanks.

If you kill her for this, you're playing an evil PC.

Is there not a way you can think of getting revenge on a friend that doesn't involve murder?

 

[Bradley Hindman]

I feel my hand is forced and I can only react to what she is doing, in a very consistent and predictable response I have demonstrated in the game many times over. Not reacting with vengeance would not make sense given the PC I have.

I would flatly remind the player that this course of action will demand revenge, and the revenge won't be playful. You don't need to tell them what form the revenge will take. They player may be too caught up in their own "hilarious" joke to fully think through what the response will be.

So let me ask you guys... What should I do? Do you think player-kill is justified in this case? How should I do it (never done it, suggestions?)

Or... am I the bad guy? (understand a jerk and a bad player). Write soon, next session approaching. Thanks.

If I truly felt that my PC was placed in a position where the ONLY logical course of action was to turn violently on another party member, I would hand my character sheet to the DM and tell them they had a new villain to employ. I would NOT carry out any of the revenge scenario myself as a player. Leads to bad blood.

I strongly agree with Flamestrike that you need to ask yourself if there is a less extreme form of revenge that would satisfy your PC.

 

[Lanefan]

@RickTheFox - what's missing from your summary (which at face value sounds like a game I'd greatly enjoy being in) is how well the players know each other and-or how long you've all been gaming together.

This makes a huge difference. If you're gaming with a long-time crew who have learned to keep character actions and player emotions separate then you're on firm ground all the way here. But if you're gaming with people you don't know all that well, maybe cool the jets a bit, test the waters by trying a lesser degree of revenge first e.g. a dagger into her pillow rather than her head while she's sleeping, and see how that goes over in terms of player reaction.

If the player whines, you have a problem: a player who can give it out but not take it. If the player says something out-of-character like "Right, it's on!", preferably with a smile, then the restraints come off.

 

[Sithlord]

I have a general of no pvp or stealing from other players at my table. Although it hasn’t been an issue in decades. Mainly something I see among teenagers or one jerk parent at a game store.

 

[RickTheFox]

This scenario sounds very juvenile. When you create a character with traits that allow you to be a jerk (or worse) . . . you're just being a jerk (or worse). I wouldn't play long in a game with someone behaving like you are. I'm not impressed with the rogue's player either, although they may be acting out of frustration with how you are playing your character.

I do not really think so. I think creating a character with a fault, be it fear of spiders, alcohol addiction, or partial memory loss after long rest can be fun. Other party members need to be aware of the trait and plan for it. We have a PC who is a 0-conscience drug addict that hears god in his head, we play around it by having some drugs on us and trading him, or using Persuassion on him. Moreover, this trait "vengeful" I have created does not allow me to be a jerk at my discretion. It forces me to react in a certain (predictable and consistent) way - and DM often pushes me to react by implementing some rude NPCs that I have to get back at - and it has good results.

As to their frustration as to how I play my character - my wizard is the most reasonable PC of the lot, maybe perhaps on level with a healer druid. I always seek diplomacy, I try to help and I do not steal and murder as my "go to" response. I smooth things over with authority and negotiate with nobility. I also play utility kit and more or less call the strategy. Never has any of other players expressed even the slightest frustration at how I play the wizard. And I asked players and DM as well. Other characters tend to be much more evil-oriented.

The goals of play for the game are (1) everyone has fun and (2) an exciting, memorable story is created by playing.

While you say you don't see this as being in character for the rogue (which is none of your business in my view, but never mind), you do seem to think it's "hilarious." So, you're having fun by the sounds of it. Will the rogue's player have fun if you hire NPCs to kill the rogue? If the rogue survives the encounter, will you and the rest of the group have fun with whatever tit-for-tat may occur in the aftermath? Will any of this help create an exciting, memorable story by playing?

1 - Me thinking something is hilarious is meta-gaming. While I myself think it would be funny, although juvenile, the PC wizard will definitely not think so. He is a serious guy, with no BS policy.
2 - It is not my business how other people play their character, so vice-versa this justifies me playing the character to player-kill. Why I mentioned it was out of character for her? Because it totally was, and other PCs notice that. They should understand it as a sudden change of hearth, a sudden change of behavior. A sudden change between enemy and friend, even.

In a real world, I would compare it to this situation - you, a career man who worked hard to get where he is, is about to strike big deals and getting promotions, and a female friend of yours jokingly accuses you of rape and presses charges, for no reason just the "lulz". Even proven innocent, your reputation in that town and your career there is over. Would you cooperate and stay in close touch with said friend, go on an adventure together? She thought it was fun. In a comedy movie it might have been (that I agree), but in the real world (which D&D role play should simmulate) it is not a happy, nor funny story.

Is there not a way you can think of getting revenge on a friend that doesn't involve murder?

I am not sure, I came here to seek advice. I really do not want to player kill / ruin the campaign, but I feel doing otherwise would be extremely poor roleplay. A mutilation, perhaps? An arm gone with some permanent -dex modifier for the rogue? I will talk about it with the DM, sounds reasonable.

I would flatly remind the player that this course of action will demand revenge, and the revenge won't be playful. You don't need to tell them what form the revenge will take. They player may be too caught up in their own "hilarious" joke to fully think through what the response will be.

Did that. Player feels safe with occupying my body as a hostage, and she knows my wizard has practically no 1v1 spells. So she thinks she will win a fight, she does not know I do not plan there to be one.

@RickTheFox - what's missing from your summary (which at face value sounds like a game I'd greatly enjoy being in) is how well the players know each other and-or how long you've all been gaming together.

This makes a huge difference. If you're gaming with a long-time crew who have learned to keep character actions and player emotions separate then you're on firm ground all the way here. But if you're gaming with people you don't know all that well, maybe cool the jets a bit, test the waters by trying a lesser degree of revenge first e.g. a dagger into her pillow rather than her head while she's sleeping, and see how that goes over in terms of player reaction.

If the player whines, you have a problem: a player who can give it out but not take it. If the player says something out-of-character like "Right, it's on!", preferably with a smile, then the restraints come off.

I am glad to hear that someone thinks this game with these characters sounds good! And to your question, well players are more or less strangers and new at D&D, only gathering for the game, around 2-3 times a month for around 9 months now, level 5. It is very clear that the wizard has a strong "no bs" policy and builds around his image of noble, while working on revenge against his family full-time and on revenge against those that slight him part-time. See? No wonder he has no time for BS.

Problem is that the harm is done, or will be done, to my PC. A total loss of face, for a young noble who has worked hard to establish himself at the city. A PC with all his background built around revenge. A dagger in the pillow would be about as good a roleplay for this character and for that transgression as writing lines would be a punishment for for war-crimes.

Also, I can not win a direct encounter. I really play comfortable noble wizard with mostly utility spells. There can not be a fair and square fight. And all that revenge stuff I have pulled so far were never traced back to me. That is how my wizard operates.

I have a general of no pvp or stealing from other players at my table. Although it hasn’t been an issue in decades. Mainly something I see among teenagers or one jerk parent at a game store.

Yeah, and what about destroying reputation of another player character? Is that PvP ?

 

[Flamestrike]

I am not sure, I came here to seek advice. I really do not want to player kill / ruin the campaign, but I feel doing otherwise would be extremely poor roleplay. A mutilation, perhaps?

Unless your character has a big fat Evil on his Alignment section, murdering or maiming a friend because they humiliated you is extremely poor roleplaying.

What alignment is your PC?

 

[RickTheFox]

We do not play by pre-determined alignments. Alignments are based on our choices. Under medieval law, mind you, insulting a noble aristocrat would result in hanging no problem. One could call that justice, given the circumstances.

Also, there is a difference between made fun of, insulted, humiliated, and totally and deliberately destroyed your reputation by impersonating you. Especially since it could be easily prevented (there is really no reason to go the ball, and it is easy to change clothes if you really want to go).

My question stands - am I the bad player here? What should I do?