Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[Crothian]

How do DMs who don't allow purchasing magic items explain why no market develops for them? That would take some pretty bizarre behaviour on the part of just about everyone with any wealth to speak of in the entire campaign world.

Becasue magica items are rare and too useful to sale. Sure a few might get sold here and there, but not enough to delope a magic item market. Also, most magical ityems are not all that useful to everyone. Magica items are geared towards combat, and not many rich and wealthyt people will be combat oriented. Also, the easiest and cheapeast magical items are limited in use, potions and scroll, wands and staffs. So, they would get used up and not sold as easily.

 

[jmucchiello]

I'm somewhat sympathitic to the cry of "I wanna buy magic items!"

That said, the costs for the items in the DMG, are just that: the costs. Point out to your players the selling price of most durable goods is around double of the creation costs.

No, the number in the DMG is already marked up 100% over the item creation cost. Read the rules for Item Creation. A 1st level casterlevel scroll of a 1st level spell is sold for 25 gp. It costs the maker 12.5 gp + 1 xp. The only reason to increase the cost more is if you add a middle man layer and I can see such a situation in a large city where the local mages don't want to be bothered by every two-bit adventurer in the city so they go through a guy who has set himself up as a middle man, who therefore takes a cut.

 

[mmadsen]

I see it as a recognition of the reality that in any environment in which valuable items exist, a market will arise in which people buy and sell such items. History teaches us that valuable items will be bought and sold. No matter how "sacred" or "cool" the thing in question might seem to be, people will sell it if there are people willing to buy it. There is no persuasive reason for magic items to be an exception.

There are plenty of persuasve reasons for why you wouldn't have a magic shop -- and especially why you wouldn't have one conveniently nearby, that you could easily locate, that had what you were looking to buy sitting on a shelf.

Buying a powerful magic item is a bit like buying a man-portable F-22 built by da Vinci. It's a tremendously concentrated store of wealth (i.e., it's easy to steal), it's a potent weapon (i.e., the state expects to control it), very few people can create anything like it (there's no mass production), and very few people can legitimately afford to buy it (and know how to use it).

 

[mmadsen]

No, the number in the DMG is already marked up 100% over the item creation cost.

Correct, but those item creation costs are just for parts; the markup presumably covers labor -- and a high-level spellcaster is analogous to an engineer with a Ph.D., not a mechanic with a few years' experience.

 

[Hitokiri]

How do DMs who don't allow purchasing magic items explain why no market develops for them? That would take some pretty bizarre behaviour on the part of just about everyone with any wealth to speak of in the entire campaign world.

I find Turanil's argument equally bizarre. I've never understood this "magic should be mysterious even to its practitioners" attitude. It's got no basis in historical beliefs about magic, the fiction these games are based on, mythology, folklore, nothing. As far as I can tell this utterly weird idea - which implies that no-one should be able to cast spells reliably, for one thing - was invented from whole cloth by gamers around 1980. It has zero basis in anything from before then or in anything from outside RPGs, period.

If you look back, I explained my reasoning for the lack of available magical items.

Of course, that's in my world. IN a world where every family has a +1 sword as an heirloom and potions can be found by the dozen, what I said wouldn't apply. A lot of what determines the ability of the PCs to purchase magical items is it's availability, and the more common an item, the easier it is to get on the open market. My games try to keep magic relatively rare and thus very valueble

 

[billd91]

But, everything outside PC actions happen because the DM "says so". Rain falls, princesses get kidnapped by evil dukes, the dead rise from the earth to menace taxpayers... Sometimes simply saying 'that doesn't match the flavor of the campaign' is all you get. For example, if you're shooting for Tolkienesque epic fantasy, magic shops (and beholders) are right out.

I think here we're running into a difference between plot and possibility. Of course non-PC initiated plot has to come from the DM (though again there should be a semblance to reason in what is part of the plot). It's the questions of possibility that are most important between the DM and the players. If the DM is going to squeeze off a realm of possibility, there should be a reason. Keeping to a certain setting would be OK for many questions. With respect to the possibility of buying magic items, there should be reasons behind why that can't really be done (other than relatively low-powered consumables). Maybe the feats needed to make those items are forgotten lore. But if so, then how are they available to the PCs? One would figure, quite reasonably, that if NPCs have the item creation feats, they might be quite willing to make stuff on commission for the PCs. Note that is different from getting stuff at Magic Goodies R Us and could make for good roleplaying. If I were a player, I'd expect the DM to have a reasonable explanation why my character's gold wasn't good enough to pay for some NPC to make me that magic item I want when I know darn well the power to make such items is available.

'Giving PC's some control over their destinies' means allowing them free range of actions in the game, not altering the parameters of the world to suit their liking. A PC can decide to go shopping, I decide the contents of the store.

I don't look at it as altering the parameters of the world to their liking. It's molding the game so that they have a certain amount of ownership over it. I think good consideration of player input makes for better players.

 

[Turanil]

But you don't have a problem with the bag full of 50,000 gp?

Sorry, I forgot to add [SARCASM]bag full of 50,000 gp[/SARCASM]

 

[Turanil]

I find Turanil's argument equally bizarre. I've never understood this "magic should be mysterious even to its practitioners" attitude.

IMC I want magic to be wonderful, amazing. I want players who get a magical item say "Woowww! Great!!". I don't see it being the case with "So, I have the money, lets get rid of this +1 sword and buy a +3, and if I bargain well, I may also get a healing potion". This is simply not how I do see magic. This is the normal behavior for modern equipment in a consumerist society. However, when I play a LotR / Viking / Dragonlance or else game, I don't want it that way. In these universes, getting a magical item is a great thing, an event of wonder, not going to the supermarket and get your +1 leather armor along your trail rations.

That said, I can allow the PCs seek and find a spellcaster, convince him through roleplaying and gold that he manufacture a magic item for them. But that's entirely different from the magic shop (even if in the end it amount to the same thing. A matter of ambiance!)

 

[Evilhalfling]

There are plenty of persuasve reasons for why you wouldn't have a magic shop -- and especially why you wouldn't have one conveniently nearby, that you could easily locate, that had what you were looking to buy sitting on a shelf.

Buying a powerful magic item is a bit like buying a man-portable F-22 built by da Vinci. It's a tremendously concentrated store of wealth (i.e., it's easy to steal), it's a potent weapon (i.e., the state expects to control it), very few people can create anything like it (there's no mass production), and very few people can legitimately afford to buy it (and know how to use it).

This is my favoriate argument.
I would add that temples are primary sources of potions, scrolls, weapons and armor. There are lots of trustyworthy priests, and there is almost always a god of protection/war/smiths
and one of healing. In major cities this is where people would come for such things.
this really only applies to low level items, as Temple Elders and patriachs rarely sit down in the old lab, pouring time and life energy out for some stranger.

Even highlevel craft mages have to limit the amout of powerful items the produce. The experance drain will force them out into danger more often than they would like and If they are living peacefully in town there is a limit of how much gold they can spend, and still have time for crafting.
The greedest craftmages should be middleaged wizards, who want their own tower and need to cough up the 50k. Lets see thats 100k worth of items sold, and 4k experiance
so these mages should work hard for a few years and then retire from activily creating items as they run out of xp or meet these goals -
campaign hooks that I will be using
1. a prolific crafter that retires from the buisness
2. a mage who wants a bodyguard, and a milk run dungeon
3. a mage who demands PC's pay the experance for items he crafts (assuming this is allowable), but wont lower the price much as he is the only source.

IMC PC's do a fair amount of crafting, and there are large traveling fairs that buy and sell random magic items. PC's will frequently set up a booth and craft high demand items for sale
Large cities will have people that will craft on commission, but not always the right feats (rods, ring and staff crafters are scarce)
NPC's will also offer to commission items from the party, in some cases appling poltical pressure so that it is hard to refuse. They normally offer to pay full price

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMC I want magic to be wonderful, amazing. I want players who get a magical item say "Woowww! Great!!". I don't see it being the case with "So, I have the money, lets get rid of this +1 sword and buy a +3, and if I bargain well, I may also get a healing potion". This is simply not how I do see magic. This is the normal behavior for modern equipment in a consumerist society. However, when I play a LotR / Viking / Dragonlance or else game, I don't want it that way. In these universes, getting a magical item is a great thing, an event of wonder, not going to the supermarket and get your +1 leather armor along your trail rations.

That said, I can allow the PCs seek and find a spellcaster, convince him through roleplaying and gold that he manufacture a magic item for them. But that's entirely different from the magic shop (even if in the end it amount to the same thing. A matter of ambiance!)

Then you shouldn't run 3e, because 3e is balanced with high magic in mind. Perhaps you should look at Grim Tales instead.

In 3e, so much of your character abilities are tied up in magic items (yuck!) that controlling what magic items players can get is a bit like telling a fighter he can't take Power Attack (sorry, can't find a tutor) or telling a wizard he can't research cone of cold as one of his spells.

Aren't there low-magic threads we could necro, or should we start another one?