Players Whining that they Should be able to Buy Magic Items

[vortex]

I think the 3e concept of mix'n'match magic items (eg +3 keen, lightening, pixiebane mercurial greatsword) cheapens the whole magic item expirience. So does the mechanical nature of magic item generation eg potions must be spells less than 3rd level with a target of blah, blah, blah. It makes magic items generic and, thus, interchangable chattles. I understand the game balance issues, and i understand item creation is now an important game concept.

At the risk of sounding like an old fart, i quite liked the ad&d list of magic items. Magic items could have unique and interesting powers, just...just because.

I think you can make magic items special by giving them intersting names and even histories. So it's not a +2 keen longsword, its 'Razortooth' or even 'Duke Rumpskil's sword'.

Everyone loves magic items, both dm's and players. I think its one of those things that drives the game. I think buying and selling is OK as long as you keep them iteresting and special, and not just comodities.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Like everything else in D&D, there are two aspects to this issue: the mechanical reality, and the flavor text.

Mechanically speaking, I allow my players to buy and sell magic items. I often run a low-magic game, but even in such a game there are enough magic items to warrant PCs wanting to sell extras, and NPCs wanting to buy them, and vice-versa.

I have no problem with magic items being bought and sold. I don't think it lessens the wonder of magic at all. That wonder is generated from unique descriptions and histories, not from the fact that the items have no price tag. i.e. a +1 sword the PCs can't get rid of is no more wondrous than the +1 sword they sell off. But the Sword of Erisdale (+1 sword), that was forged from the nails that bound a village martyr to his cross of fire during the Consecration of Terror...has a sense of wonder about it whether you can sell it or not.

Flavor-wise, I don't like the idea of a magic shop. It's rather mundane and, in my mind, would provide too tempting a target to professional thieves. So I run the magic trade similar to a black market. It's all about who you know, and who they know. It's about finding buyers. It's about buyers finding the money to actually pay the astronomical prices that magic items generate, or more often having something they're willing to trade. It's about Gather Information, Buff, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy checks. In 3.0 there were even Innuendo checks.

I choose to handle it this way because I think the "mini-adventure" associated with selling off extra loot or buying wanted items can be a nice break from life-or-death combat encounters and save-the-world type affairs. It also provides me with plot hooks if I need them, though I rarely use these.

Sorry this just doesnt wash with me.

If I spend 100 hours designing a world, and 5 hours a week working on fun and interesting adventures (I hope) for players who show up on Sunday and game... then yeah, its more my game than theirs.

The issue here (for me,) is that the players (all the players, which includes the DM,) should decide what kind of game they want to play before the DM spends 100 hours preparing for the game. At that point, if the DM decides he can't work with the kind of game the players want, they can figure out a compromise, or part ways.

But in my opinion it's a bit disingenuous for a DM to decide on his own what kind of game he wants to run, spend 100 hours preparing it, and only then inform the players, at the same time telling them he's invested far too much time in the campaign to change it now.

 

[Ourph]

Yessssss, which is quite different than telling them no b/c you're the DM and if they don't like it they can leave. One scenario can be justified. The other cannot.

Why is it unjustifiable to ask players to shop around for a game/GM who is happy running the kind of game they enjoy?

Personally, I think the fact that I invest significant time and money into creating a game (primarily for my own recreation and enjoyment) earns me the right to do things the way I want. What can't be justified are players who try to coerce someone else into being their personal entertainment centre because they are too lazy to shop around for a GM who's already running a game that will satisfy them.

Telling a player that they have the option to leave if they don't enjoy the game is the height of respectfullness. It's how mature adults communicate with one another. If two adults cannot come to a mutual agreement on something, they part ways. Children (and those adults who have failed at the task of growing up) are the ones who keep coming back week after week whining about not getting their way.

 

[JEL]

For me it comes down to the setting. In some settings (usually more mythic type fantasy), magic items are all one of a kind and incredibly rare, so buying and selling just doesn't happen. In other settings, magic items do, more or less, equate with technology and buying and selling is going to happen and may even be common. In other words, if I'm doing a game that's Middle Earth based, then no magic shops. If I'm doing Talislanta or Spelljammer, then they exist.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Why is it unjustifiable to ask players to shop around for a game/GM who is happy running the kind of game they enjoy?

Personally, I think the fact that I invest significant time and money into creating a game (primarily for my own recreation and enjoyment) earns me the right to do things the way I want. What can't be justified are players who try to coerce someone else into being their personal entertainment centre because they are too lazy to shop around for a GM who's already running a game that will satisfy them.

There are two potential issues I see here, that make it unjustifiable:

1) It's not a simple matter to "shop around" for a game/GM. Roleplaying isn't exactly an expansive hobby, and most people tend to play with their friends, rather than hop from game to game. Gaming usually isn't like street court basketball, where you can take your ball down and find a game most any summer day - it's far more insular than that.

2) If you're creating a game primarily for your own recreation and enjoyment, and presenting it as my way or the highway, then you're very much "coercing" the players into being your personal entertainment center - and the consequence of too much my way/highway GMing is often a disfunctional group, where no one ends up getting the satisfaction they want out of gaming.


I don't really think that's what's going on in the case of this thread, at least not on the side of the GM. Personally, I think the players are being a bit unreasonable (shocking behaviour for gamers, I know). Barring some unusual background issue we aren't privy to, I think the problem comes down to the two players stubbornly refusing to accept the painless solution - if item creation feats are available, they shouldn't complain that they can't buy magic items.

The typical reason people complain about not being able to buy magic gear is because the GM has restricted other access to magic as well, with the result being they never get any of the gear they want.

It would be one thing for them to complain if the GM had removed item creation feats, but of all people, magic users with access to those feats should be the last ones to complain about not being able to buy magic.

Patrick Y.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Flavor-wise, I don't like the idea of a magic shop. It's rather mundane and, in my mind, would provide too tempting a target to professional thieves.

I've never seen anyone propose a magic shop in this sense, in several internet debates on the subject. Has anyone actually played in a game with one of these? I never have.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Until about a month ago I had always been of the opinion that PCs shouldn't be able to buy magic items in D&D. I changed my mind completely as I was convinced by arguments in an earlier thread that this was implausible in any universe where they exist in reasonable quantities.

As far as I can see there are two main arguments against this view:

Well stocked magic shops are equally implausible
This is true however no one, to my knowledge, has ever proposed the existence of well stocked magic shops. These are luxury items, made to order.

You lose the 'magic' of magic items
Firstly these are two different senses of the word magic. The first usage means wonderful, mysterious, etc. However magic items in the default D&D universe are not magical in this sense. In D&D 'magic' is a force of the universe, like electromagnetism. For all practical purposes, well understood.

That sense of wonder and mystery can be preserved however by using the most powerful and exotic of magic items - artefacts. These are the equivalent of super high technology in our world. Cold fusion or AI, for example. In other words - still mysterious.

 

[Saeviomagy]

There are 3 appropriate spellcasters in the group. None of the three has taken any Item Creation Feats at All. Zilch. One is a 9th Level Mage, One is a 9th Level Sorceror and the other is a 10th Level Mage.

The two players who whine run 2 of these characters.

I'm all for them creating things, but they won't.

If that's really the case, then they're just jerks. Really. Of all the characters, these are the ones who are the least dependant upon magical items, and if they want magic items, they won't have a problem making them. They're given the feats as bonus feats for goodness sake!

 

[Ourph]

There are two potential issues I see here, that make it unjustifiable:

1) It's not a simple matter to "shop around" for a game/GM. Roleplaying isn't exactly an expansive hobby, and most people tend to play with their friends, rather than hop from game to game. Gaming usually isn't like street court basketball, where you can take your ball down and find a game most any summer day - it's far more insular than that.

Well then, it's somewhat incumbent upon a player who wants to remain a player (i.e. not take up the reins of DM on his own) to accept the games he can find. It seems a bit manipulative to say to a supposed "friend" that, despite the fact that the vast majority of time and work to make the game possible is put forth by the DM, the players demand equal input into the shape and strictures of the game. IMO, a reasonable and mature player who is left with the choices of 1) play in a DM's game that isn't suited to his specific gaming tastes; or 2) don't play at all; accepts his situation and makes a committed decision between those two choices. As I said before, only a child (or an entirely too child-like adult) returns to a friends game week after week demanding that the game be changed to suit him, despite clear indications that change will not happen and his constant complaining about it is unwelcome.

2) If you're creating a game primarily for your own recreation and enjoyment, and presenting it as my way or the highway, then you're very much "coercing" the players into being your personal entertainment center - and the consequence of too much my way/highway GMing is often a disfunctional group, where no one ends up getting the satisfaction they want out of gaming.

Not at all. I create the campaign/game for my own enjoyment and shop for players who enjoy what I've created. I coerce no one. In fact, I'm very up front with people who join my game that it's not the kind of thing that appeals to everyone. Not only do I not pressure them to stay with the game if they are not satisfied, I do what I can (using my Knowledge: Local Gaming skill ) to help them find a game/GM who will fit with their preferred style of play.

IMO, that's the way intelligent, mature, good-intentioned adults behave toward one another.

 

[tigycho]

I think you're missing out on some good opportunities here, really.

I mean, assuming the PCs have been asking around for the purchase of magic items, finally offer them up a "shady" dealer who claims to have an inventory of various items which can be manufactured "for a price" upon request.

Pick out some things, and then have the players pick the things they are interested in. Shady dealer leaves, and a few weeks later delivers the goods as promised.

The items work as advertised - UNTIL the party meets their nemesis, who utters a single command word, and all of the items instantly become cursed, negative versions of what they were before they have detrimental effects. Evil DM laugh ensues.

I did something similar... the party wanted to buy magic items, and a con man found out about it. Now the guy is well meaning, he just isn't very GOOD at making magic items. He rushes their completion... so the items he makes are ... ahem ... defective.

Examples: +1 flametongue blade. Works mostly as advertised... but only on even attack rolls. 10% chance of doing a 3d6 fireball, centered on the blade on a confirmed critical hit (they don't know that, yet). Healing potions which work as advertised, but which leave the user faerie fired after use, as well. Stuff like that.

They got decent prices for everything, better than book price, even, which should have been a clue. The party isn't unhappy about this stuff, but if they even meet Big Frank the Magic Dealer again, I think a dust-up may occur...